Understanding how it works is how you get good at something, so there's a correlation there. Therefore, people who are good at the game often know how it works better than those who don't interact much with the PvP aspect. It's the same reason why some people don't see slight differences in speed, while many sparrers can.

HA!!

I never said someone who spars isn't going to know about spar. That doesn't make any sense. Of course there's a correlation between understanding something and being good at it. What do you think I meant? Sparrers are just randomly slashing their swords crossing their fingers for a win?

It's definitely possible to know how something works, without being good at it. Just because someone doesn't have a 1000+ win ratio doesn't mean they don't understand sparring.

In all honesty I don't see how 90% of the sparers that represent themselves on this website would be any better at patrolling than the current staff members.

There's a reason majority of the spar community don't mind someone like Fulgore patrolling the arena...he's someone who's been in the spar community for a while...I think we'd all prefer more people like him monitoring the arena instead of some random Zanza member...I mean lets take for example lag...i'm sure many people have faced someone who's frozen and when they unfreeze they move really fast around the arena for a small while...someone like Fulgore would probably understand it's just due to lag but one of your random admins would probably assume it's speed hacking...

Not having a go against the other admins but having some people like Thallen/Fulgore/Jack/James/Relic/Kosma/Tego etc. who have been playing for a while as admin to monitor spars would be more beneficial and make more sense than having a random person since they understand spar better. Wouldn't you agree?

Majority of sparrers including myself probably probably aren't the best people to monitor spars...I mean lots of sparrers always throw hacking/longsword other accusations at each other in rage, but as mentioned above experienced players of the game who know the spar mechanics well would make better admins to patrol spars than some random sparrers or current admins.

Then focus on the 10%. Majority of Classic GP's are categorized as a social/family tea party type of players. Meaning little to none experience in the other aspects of Classic. Pretty simple, quit talking gibberish via guild chat and start getting familiar with the other activities in Classic (PK, Spar, Towering, etc).
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Like Kuz mentioned, there's players out there that are well equipped to know the fundamentals and mechanics of what differentiates a player with their connection in a match.

:cool

Oh no, people have different interests than you so they shouldn't be GPs.

Also, nice usage of generalization and making it as if all social players know nothing about PKing, sparring, or towering.

Knowing, is different than partaking and having experience.

CM you're still the same old asskisser per usual.

You are probably the dumbest GP that uses this forum, what I'm trying to say and what Bryan is trying to say is that MOST gp staff members are the social tea party type of players, most of them are hired off of there clean ban records because all they do is afk and spam guild chat.

Gonna leave this quote here because it is pretty much saying what I think

By the way CM that thread you made saying you were sorry for how you act on these forums obviously hasn't affected you at all you're still a stubborn little kid when it comes to these topics.

Because we don't kill other players = we aren't general assholes that have our chats reset? K.

@Fulgore running away from an argument doesn't prove anyone wrong.

No, Not having an understanding of something so simple such as sparring or pking is pathetic you're hired to monitor places that have functions based off of these features and don't even understand how the mechanics for that activity work.

Please explain what I don't understand, because you seem to be so sure I, and many others, don't have the required knowledge to moderate spar.

Bryan pretty much summarised everything... But yet again your jumping to conclusions he didn't say you had no idea about how any of it works...he's saying the people who are punishing people/moderating should be people who are the most familiar with the activities and understand how it works (ref. to my earlier post if you are incapable of understanding what this means)

here you go

No, you generalized Zanza members, claiming they don't even play Graal. And are arguing that no one but sparrers should moderate spar.

I'm not disagreeing with you that if Fulgore and another GP were monitoring spar, he should probably have the say. But simply saying that you have a bad spar score means you can't moderate spar doesn't make sense.

I never said this, otherwise I'd say fulgore shouldn't be moderating spars.

Alright I think it's been said like in the majority of posts in the last few pages...If someone's gonna moderate and monitor something like spar it should be people the experienced people to spar who understand the mechanics well and have an understanding of spar.


Take for example hit boxes...One admin might think someone is hacking their sword range because they hit someone diagonally which has a higher range compared to hitting across. But someone like Thallen/Fulgore/James/Tego/Brett etc. understands why it's not sword hacking so...I think I speak for majority of the spar community and we'd prefer people like them monitoring instead of someone who's sparred like 400 times in 5 years. So we can avoid situations like this any many other things that may occur in spar.

I don't really know about towering so I can't comment on that moderation.

Yet again let me state i'm not slating you admins...I've been GP on client before I know you guys have the servers best interest at heart but come on you can't deny having experienced sparrers moderate sparring would be better than random admins...to avoid incidents like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread.

We rarely, if ever, encounter someone in the arena who is lagging so badly that it actually requires staff to intervene. That's usually because they'll end up disconnecting or freezing for an auto loss. People like Jimbo and Volkan are probably some of the laggiest sparrers and we just deal with it.

I don't think any active sparrer has it on their list of priorities to find opportunities where they should lag themselves for an "advantage." It's so much more likely that they're getting bad service, a family member is using their internet, or their ISP is just choking for a few minutes or seconds. It's happened to me before, and it's more of a punishment to me than anyone else. That being said, I don't think that's worth punishing with a ban...

This is something that could, and should be trained to anyone moderating spar.

I literally said this in the post you quoted...

I'll take dumbest GP over dumbest player any dayalso not even GP

???

Exactly who am I "asskissing"?


Why are you all so instigative? Literally when someone doesn't agree with your almighty 100% opinion, you attack them. Calm down, this thread is meant for discussion, not for attacking each other.

LOL shows how much of an airhead Red is.

If a GP doesn't have any in-game knowledge about the aspects of iClassic aside from kissing ass to the right people, I don't see why they should moderate the game. Just because you have a clean slate and I don't, doesn't mean you know more than me when it comes to the activities mentioned. If you aren't familiar with what is expected of you, then how do you expect to excel at your position?

Also, nice usage of overthinking and exaggerating my statements. We're all considered social players, however, some of us are equipped to do things better than others (PK-Spar-Towering-etc).

On a side note: don't think it's right for an admin to be violating someone's privacy for their own personal vendetta.

When being good at moderation requires you to have a lot of kills, we'll call you.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????
He never said anything about requiring a lot of kills to know what the **** you're talking about.

This thread makes me love living in America.

http://i.imgur.com/uP6gH8c.jpg

lol'd

Before I fully understood the spar mechanics I'd often think those who were using them properly were hacking. It took me a long time of active sparring to change my views on this.

A lot of gps don't actively spar and could perceive sparrers using mechanics to their advantage as hacking, when I didn't know much about it I did the exact same thing.
All these people such as red, bryan and kuz are trying to say is that some admins don't understand the game as they don't really explore that aspect of it, and should leave the moderating of that part to those more experienced.

I get your point but we can't exactly force you guys to be GPs. You gotta sign up like fulgore did and we'd have people more experienced in that particular aspect. Even after this, we are unlikely to have staff who is experienced in this online 24/7, we would eventually have to deal with these situations as well. On one hand, the ones who are experienced in it could sign up and you guys could also give your opinions and suggestions on this particular area as well.

Idk why you're acting like the current GPs don't know anything about the game. I don't nobody who has "kissed ass" to get to their position. Maybe in the past, yes, but right now no.

Also, when GPs are hired they have to go through specific tests. Higher ups don't just message you "congrats you're a GP now good luck!" They make sure that they're familiar with certain aspects of the game.

It doesn't take much to understand aspects of the game. You aren't required to be good at them, but rather understand how it works, and I'm quite sure the current staff team is familiar with those aspects.

You've been using generalization as well, so as long as we both know we're doing it I don't see the harm.

Don't really know what you're referring to

i don't mind people like contego, james205, clops, sarah, thallen having a moderator power in the arena(player moderator). they have been around here for awhile now and gained huge trust from everyone.

it's always better to have someone who's expert in the field, than just an outsider.

The thing is, there is no need for people who only moderate the arena. If one of those players were to be hired, they would be required to moderate all of Graal.

In all honesty, most reports that have to do with sparring are just "this person is hacking". It's very easy to tell when someone is hacking, but other times it isn't as obvious, and at the point you need to give staff a break, because not everyone has a perfect eye.

Staff won't ban someone for lagging, unless they can prove that the lag/delay is intentional. The worst a person will get is maybe a disconnect.

I think all that they're really trying to say is they want someone with a more "perfect eye" to tell the difference in regards to those kinds of reports. I think the core argument on each side got blown out of proportion.

Wow, so you have to have 10k spar wins to actually be a graal player? you're so full of yourself it disgusts me.

I wonder why you aren't being hired when you constantly berate staff members on the forums?? Maybe because it shows how much of an asshole you are? food for thought to everyone who has nothing to say but how awful it is they aren't staff and how awful the staff team with no actual basing other than "lol they play the game they want to, they don't actually count as people, let me throw in some guilds that only like 4 of the staff members were actually in"

zanza has been dead for ages. most of the staff members in it now are just friends who became friends after they became staff. Wow, isn't it weird that they are in the same guild??

If you can't put two and two together, no, it isn't.

edit: I've put more thought into your post and realized a few things. I'm glad you think that staff members aren't the same as you. It would be a catastrophe if they were.

You can't seriously be this blind, can you? Do you not see all the people in Graal City asking for 13 year olds to trade nudes with and ****? "rp ;) girls only" has no place on a kids game, or really any game that isn't made specifically for it. There are places for that, and, wow, big surprise, it isn't Graal. Try one of those stupid roleplay apps or forums or whatever they are, I know they exist, I don't care to find them. take it to kik or something even, if you do that on a game rated 4+ or 8+ or whatever unixmad decided it was this month, you deserve to be banned for being that stupid.

And maybe, just maybe, they were reported? Think about it. How else would a GP just happen to find this particular player who was doing inappropriate things in PM out of the 4,000 that are online?

ffs



it's no wonder that so many of the competent staff quit, I don't know how they put up with this bull****.

I also think it would be great to have a staff team full with people with a "perfect eye" but it's not just about that, you also have to be able to deal with other aspects as a GP, including being able to have a civilized discussion when a team member doesn't necessarily agree with you and just by looking at this thread, a lot of people who might have a "perfect eye" are not able to do that

Although I do agree with you, both arguments were exaggerated I think.

The difference is, the people who are getting these warnings clearly aren't the kind of people doing rp in Graal City, (I agree the ones in Graal City doing that are fine to be banned). I imagine they're just swearing in pms and it's getting checked, which is odd unless one person reports the other for something they're saying to each other in pms.

If a person was reported for doing something inappropriate, the GPs will have to cover all bases of the investigation. Even if the report did not specify anything about PMs, staff members still have to look at them since the inappropriate behavior could have easily ensued over PM.

The report may have also been made by a less experience player, who maybe doesn't know what a PM is, or maybe the reporter just forgot to include that it was over PM. All of these factors have to be taken into consideration when investigating a report.

exactly, what I'm saying is no GP is going to find you swearing in pms out of the 4k online unless you are reported by the other person.

But if I'm wrong, we're talking about Sexual Misconduct, right? And from what I've seen of all the people complaining about it, and simply its name, that is for doing inappropriate things on the game (nudes through kik, dirty roleplay, etc). But if the people doing it were a little smarter, they would be asking for these things off the game and leading interested parties away from the game so it isn't Graal's problem. Fortunately for GPs, anyone doing this on graal in the first place is not very intelligent since they can't find any of the online places for this.

I'm glad we agree that those in Graal City should be banned for it, but shouldn't anyone asking for nudes on kik be banned? Are we just not talking about the same offence?

I agree, but what I'm saying is that these people who we are now discussing aren't doing that, they're just getting pms checked (supposedly) and then action is taken. I don't think it was sexual misconduct as the offense but I haven't heard personally from these people, so I can't be 100% sure I guess. In my opinion, if it's just swearing or something among two people having an extended conversation, one person should just block the other person if need be, instead of trying to bait them into further discussion and then report them to try and get them banned or something.

ah alright, I didn't think swearing in PMs was an actual offense (unless it's really severe, I guess) but hey whatever. I wish the block button was used more, too.

Offtopic
 

Whoever is handling the PM's between players is doing a **** job at it. I had also been banned for swearing at another player through private messaging, whom I had blocked after arguing, so he continued the harassment from an alternate account and then reported me(which the staff had probably decided to overlook due to me swearing).

On a side note, I agree with some of the posts mentioning how the arena shouldn't be moderated 24/7. I've been recently sparring from time to time, and have probably only encountered a hacker once + there was barely anyone that was excessively lagging during the times I had sparred lol.

Wait, are you expecting staff to do some sort of extensive background history check on every single report? They looked at your PMs and saw you were swearing at someone else who had reported you, and then dealt with it accordingly. Do you expect them to just know that the person you're swearing at had an alternate account, and that you had blocked that entirely different account?

Don't break the rules, even if someone else does it.

Because you never spar?

You see, when one player starts a problem and seeks to start one and the other player says "YAH LETS ARGUE ABOUT IT", theyre both in the wrong and since the other player you blocked went to an alternate account and you stayed on yours and proceeded to swear, well... that player believe it or not gets banned!

Also there are tons of hackers in the mornings afternoons and night. Just when your not on, or not sparring. They also show up more in the mixed room. The rooms shouldnt and should be moderated.

I'm pretty good at not breaking rules lmfao. I was just giving my input on the ongoing debate. I already knew they don't go in-depth on reports since that's Toonslab's job.

@Livid - I never replied to the alternate account since I tried being the bigger person. I had also been getting random harassment messages from this player for months so I usually never reply to him, so it was the first time I actually did reply, and slipped a few words. :P

I'm actually glad you're being really constructive about this.

Well, I mean AFAIK you're kinda new to the game so there's a lot you're not going to understand. But something they look for in hiring GPs is experience. (Although I'm not going to lie, I do question a few of the recent hirings. But It's not my place to do so)

Either way, when hiring a GP and allowing them to moderate a specific part of the game, it should be expected that they are trained in fully understanding how the mechanics work, and what to look out for. If this isn't happening, then I think we have an entirely different problem.

Although I totally agree that a seasoned sparrer is going to be better at calling out these things, you can't deny that a lot of sparrers have a really poor attitude. I don't blame anyone for not trusting them with authority. Because being a GP requires you to give prompt, and full answers to any genuine question you get with as grammar as perfect to your cabalility. And yes, some sparrers like Fulgore are very capable of doing this, I don't want to call out any names on specific sparrers.

Personally I never remember perceiving any mechanics it as hacking. I don't exactly remember if there was a time I realized there was blink, but I remember it as far back as when I started playing. Just recently I learned the techniques to keep my blink up as long as possible, thanks to Thallen.

This is why I bring up GPs needing to be trained and experienced in situations like this.

Y'know, I've been playing this game for over 6 years now, and I still consider myself poor at spar. I don't believe that has anything to do with mechanics.

I've always been bad at games that require split second decisions. I remember my friends used to make me play that one life defuse game in Modern Warfare 2. I was almost ALWAYS the first to go. I'm pretty sure they liked me playing with them because of how **** I was at making split second decisions. I eventually just used the RPG since I can try to take them out with me.

Although I want to clarify that I'm not saying every GP or every player understands spar. I'm trying to say that being bad at spar does not mean they don't understand it.

Maybe it's possible I could get better at learning what to do in a spar, but it's just not something I want to invest more time into. And yes, I already have invested time into it. I've done more than 1000 spars (not including guild spars) which yeah, is kinda small for 6 years (although I've been on and off a lot) it's still enough to learn the difference between hacking and techniques.

See, and if they said it that way maybe they would be understood. Instead, it's

Which is rude and not at all constructive, nor does it make sense. I was in Zanza, so I've never played Graal? I won't go into detail on how wrong this is, because I doubt I need to. (There are only 3 members from Zanza on the staff team anyway, anyone else who is in Zanza now is really only a part because they were friends and joining each other's guilds.)

Albie, I appreciate you being cool-headed about the situation. Not all admins are experienced sparrers, no. Speaking for myself, I put a good amount of time into pking, towering and such back when I enjoyed it. My team won fourth or fifth in an early GST. Sure, it may not look like I have much time into it (I have like 17k kills, which doesn't seem like much anymore) but I did it all at a time when there were less players around to kill and such so I think it's pretty excusable. Have I put as much time into these activities as others? No. But that doesn't mean I don't understand when someone is lagging or cheating. It's fairly obvious 99% of the time, and if it isn't beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll leave it alone.

A GP told me that they have tools to determine if a player is exceeding their speed and/or lag. Do you folks take into account where the player is located? Also do you base your decision on the (number of reports the player has accumulated or observations meaning just by looking at the player)?

There's also a number to tell how high the average change in ping is, which shouldn't be too high unless you're force lagging yourself, or you're dropping packets.

Graal is the only game I think of where you have an advantage with 1000ms, so I don't really see it as unfair to cut them off from spar tbh. Although I do understand that a decent connection to the Graal servers (and a decent connection at all) is something rare to get.

Spar monitors 2k16