Dude the odds were kinda extremely against you here. You did everything wrong at the time that made it seem like you were botting.

First off you were using 3 accounts at the same time which by itself already raises a red flag. Second, you were zoned out watching TV which practically turned you into a robot. Mindlessly pressing the sword button and not paying attention to anything else on screen, you then missed some prompts that are there specifically to detect bots therefore flagging you as a potential bot for all the staff to see. In comes staff to check and verify and you claim you were so zoned out you didn't notice they had dragged you for 5-10 swings. Now that's quite a long time to keep going after being dragged. Most people will stop immediately.

Probably by the time you realized you were dragged and went back to your conveyer belts and said you weren't botting (which by at that point seemed extremely suspicious) the staff that was there was probably either gone or not paying attention to the screen because they were preparing to ban you. Either that or they did see you but by then it was probably far too late and everything seemed heavily not in your favor because for all the staff knew you could have been botting but just looked over to see you were dragged and stopped to say you weren't in hopes of not getting caught. It would have seemed very, very, very likely.

So yeah...you can't be mad at staff for doing their job because I, as well as anyone else, would have thought the same thing. You're unbanned now so maybe you'll be a little more careful to watch for those prompts next time you want to try cheating a little by using 3 accounts to farm. And yes, that is cheating considering not everyone has 3 accounts handy that they can use to farm at the same time giving them an unfair advantage to others. It might not be as bad as straight up botting or hacking and it's not enough to get you in trouble alone, but it's still considered a minor form of cheating nonetheless when you're using them to your advantage.

off topic but Dusty is in the all around devolpment department. He can do graphics, yes, but he also does leveling, scripting, and most likely gani and sound effects. He has also banned people that he has caught in the past if I remember correctly.

By the way, Did you do the full duration of the ban or they unbanned you earlier?
Anyways, from what I saw from the other thread it seemed to be possible to auto farm using three accounts without using bots. However, since bots are also capable of doing what you had done manually then admins can't judge if you did use a bot or not. The dragging thing to check if you're a bot or not is interesting. I believe it doesn't mean you're not using a bot if you got dragged because maybe some bots allows you to get dragged? But, not getting dragged by the admin definitely means you're using a bot which wasn't the case in this situation. The admins decided to ban you anyways because they thought they have more evidence that shows you're a bot than the evidence that shows you're not one.
Remember that decisions by staff members has to be made in sucha games , we're not playing a well developed games that can detect bots automatically. I would suggest you to be more careful in the future Even if you know you're not cheating.

^-yes he's much more than just graphics. He actually does scripting, levels and development much more than graphics.

And yes he makes a lot of ganis and sound effects and has dabbled in the GP side of things. He's pretty much an everything-staff. But mostly development.

They drag you to see if you still swing your sword constantly. They do it to see if you notice. If you stop (which people who aren't botting do, because they got dragged away which is 1. Surprising and 2. Gives them a reason to stop since they're not at their farm anymore) then they assume you're not botting.

However if you continue to swing your sword and pay no attention to the fact that you were dragged away, it heavily implies you were using a bot since a bot wouldn't stop simply because they were dragged away from the farm.

In this case Aguzo said he continued to swing his sword 5-10 times after being dragged which heavily implies he was botting (even if he wasn't, it makes it seem like he was).

Then why not make a better method of detecting bots? I've seen of several guilds farmbot actively, The message prompt really is just simply a extremely poor method of stopping bots, While it can stop people who just use simple bots to just press the sword, But you can just get a Aimbot to press the "Are you there" or even better yet get the bot to press everywhere on screen to make it hit all message prompts.

You could make it where graal will send a message to admins if there is a third party app on screen that is pressing on screen to which many other games besides graal has done, make it where the game won't start if there is a APK installed on the device, like Com2Us has done, Ect. Many other games developed good anti-cheat methods for farming and of the sort like speed hacking and ect, even zone has a system that I can detect if your speed hacking, Why is classic not able to make efficient ways to stop cheating seemingly at all?

In the entire years of Classic being around, Most advanced anti cheating method graal made, Is a message prompt that anyone who bots can just easily find a way over and only thing it does is annoy the crap out of people who actually farm.

I doubled check the thread and Aguzo never said "I swinged 5-10 times) etc. My bad if he did, I probably missed it.
All what I saw is similar quotes to this ome:
Again, i'm not judging the decision that was made by the admin for few reasons:

• The staff aren't trained enough to face such situations. That's because it's voluntary work, no specific education is required.
• There are very few ways that the staff can do to check if the player is using a bot or not in this game.
• The players can do many things in this game that may look suspicious. For example the accusation of "long sword hack", when the actual clarification is abusing the order of movements and hit directions of the game-according to thallen

ETC.

If this was any other noob the thread would be already closed :rolleyes:

Summary:
-Using multiple device for user gain -Should be against rules.
- Overall ban seems fair (Considering swinging sword etc after dragged.Avoiding ban by using accs while banned on one of them(the one considered as warning) could also come into play.
- Staff overall could of handled it better(warping to place + quick check would be better than drag imo)-Or if dragging make them go alot away from farming bit.
- Fix could possibly be done on this case, by disabling sword on conveyor belt etc.

I believe she means when he was dragged he kept swinging his sword. In doing so, he appeared to be a bot and must have at least swung his sword 5-10 times. He may not have seen the screen at the time he was dragged and it was too late when he did take action.

Having multiple accounts for main account benefit isn't technically cheating but nonetheless cheeky. They thought you were a bot, you acted like a bot and didn't pay attention to the "Are you there" warning which is doing what it's supposed to do.

It's not that simple. Dusty would know better than myself as he's the one who implements most of the stuff like this...but graal is ...weird i guess. It's not exactly possible to put something in graal to detect 3rd party apps. Dusty said that as far as graal knows, it's the only thing that exists lol. So I'll just leave it up to him to better explain why it's not simple and why the prompt and other things we've imprinted are pretty much the best we can do.
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He hid it in a spoiler in an earlier post (dunno why it was in a spoiler):

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The staff are trained by their GPAs how to handle such situations, and if they aren't sure they usually ask someone who would know better. They don't just make guesses or anything. It would be nice if there were better ways to detect bots but unfortunately as of right now there isn't (as I said before, something Dusty could explain better).

But I mean usually when a player is dragged away and they still continue to "farm" as if nothing had happened, that's a pretty damn good indication that they're using a bot. A normal human most likely wouldn't do that...unless they're zoned out watching TV while controlling 3 devices at the same time i guess. But how often does that happen?
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^
basically summarized. Everything about the situation looked super bad on Aguzo's end and like I said, anyone else including myself would have thought he was botting, too. It sucks botting can't be more easily identified...but it's not the staff's fault for thinking he was botting when it oh so very much appeared like he was.

That's a pretty clear warning - if someone uses an alt account to hack or cheat that doesn't make their main account void of all punishment, not saying you cheated, but it definitely is a proper warning for those that do.
It's not a solid defense when you slashed 5-10 times before moving, just looks like you noticed and then proceeded to disable the bot/macro and move back to act like nothing happened.
Considering you swung 5-10 times before moving back and missed a few activity checks, it is very plausible that you were using something like an allen key and then just checking up on it to hit the queues when they popped up. You've also just said you were doing 4-5 swings a second, allen tap would probably be the exact same as if you were spamming it like you say you were.
You contacted them and you've said they marked it as 'resolved' which means they overlooked the evidence and still thought you cheated, they aren't required to reply back. They also are not required to post log files (nor should they in the case that it might help botters work around it) they are simply recorded for them.

Again, you've said yourself you swung 5-10 times before moving back after being dragged, so no, they don't have to clear it up because you didn't move right away and are fully aware that you didn't.

All of those rules were written by forum stuff who have no affiliation with GraalOnline, nor did I ever consult GraalOnline staff when putting them together.
Common practice that sites based around games do not allow behavior that would be in violation of that game (because this covers things like hacking/cheating/harassment/etc). Not wanting other Graal forums advertised is strictly for security reasons, and developers are free to advertise their own games so long as it's done in a proper manner and not just an obvious attempt at copying Graal.

This is exactly why ban threads are typically not allowed here, we have no control over in-game matters and do not represent GraalOnline.

Horrible implication at your part, has nothing to do with the player and his ban thread for it was closed, but he was unbanned before this thread was posted, and it sheds a good topic discussion for the community and may help prevent the same thing happening to others.

When I’m swinging 4-5 times per second, 5-10 swings is 1-2 seconds. Did the staff just drag me and leave, instead of waiting 1-2 seconds? I told the invisible staff member (who apparently left in less than 3 seconds) that I wasn’t botting, because before that I was dragged 1-2 months ago as well (when I was using only 2 accounts). Like I’ve stated before, I only missed the prompt 2-4 times out of maybe the 30 times I got them in that day

How do I get a copy of my player logs, I want to see them on the day I was banned

It’s not a proper warning when I had no idea what the true reason was behind the ban
I remembered a player named Zlotz who told me that he was banned for using bots on an unidentified account, so I figured that unidentified accounts were prohibited from farming for an identified account

Again, how do you stop a hack on your phone (device with the account that was dragged) without pausing and going to the app? My device isn’t even rooted

But they provided you a reason and you clearly knew what it was.


So he says he was using bots, and you infer that the ban was probably cause of using unidentified accounts?

If graal cannot detect a 3rd party app, Or. Make it possible to make graal not work if there is a APK installed on the device or of the short,

Then what can staff do if botting gets out of hand? What would graal do if just one guild of farm botters decided to teach everyone how to do it? If graal cannot somehow detect such. Is there anything at all graal could ever do to fix it then? The message prompt is already extremely easy to work around with, I seen people bot for days on end. So it clearly works well enough for staff not to be able to detect aimbots hitting the Are you There Message.

I did not clearly know what it was, that's why I'm saying that I thought it was for using unidentified accounts. I figured, since my main didn't get banned and only my unidentified accounts got banned the staff member was implying "you can't use unidentified accounts due to previous incidents where players try to hide the use of botting"

However you look at it, it doesn't qualify as a warning

You of all people should know that I didn't know what it was, when I even asked you how to use the new toonslab support site, and I told you in that moment
"I think it's more cause they were unidentified accounts. just didn't wanna bother adding an email" (since it was a fresh graal install)
https://i.imgur.com/JT8IVIz.png

I understand that staff are trained by Dread and other GPAs but, can you compare this training to an IT related degree in university? I know some of the graal police staff and non of them have actually studied IT. Of course the training they gain is almost enough to solve all of the situations successfully but sometimes things can go wrong and this situation is a good example (if Aguzo was saying the truth). It's not rare to experience such situations in games (in general) but, it's more likely to happen in this game than other bigger games. That's because the staff members are more skilled.
I'm not saying that the GP members are un-skilled, it's just what was expected from them when they were hired. They're doing great work when you think about it, they only had the training from Dread yet, managed to solve a lot of situations fairly inside the game.
Maybe a mistake took place, maybe Aguzo was right and maybe the "logs" shows that Aguzo was banned un-fairly. Nevertheless, in that moment it was SAFE to assume Aguzo was using a bot because of the multiple evidences they had. You know that the game is very fun to play but isn't well-developed compared to other bigger games, which is normal. Sometimes you have to make choices and think about your actions in more than one view, you may know that you never cheated but they may never know that because of the evidences that were VISIBLE to them.

Like I said it's rough waters because you were behaving exactly like a macro/bot would - I'm not trying to accuse you of doing anything I'm just trying to show how easily what you did could be seen as cheating and how you could prevent it. The provided information by order of that conversation leaves out that it was 3 accounts at once, so my advice to you would be stick to one or two accounts and don't behave like a robot.

Seems they probably just linked the accounts to your main after they banned them and banned the main (if they think someone is botting on alts they are going to investigate and try to find other accounts). So you probably weren't banned twice for two different things, but rather it's just connected to the same incident.

Swinging 5-10 times before moving is vital information, even if you swing 4-5 times a second by hand, that's roughly 700~ swings a minute combined across three devices which is about 40,000~ swings an hour, to do that by hand in a very awkward 3 device setup seems pretty unlikely.

Even in the video I posted yesterday I'm tapping that fast, maybe even faster. Don't understand how a staff member can conclude that someone is botting with only 1-2 seconds after being dragged
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to prove if my phone has ever been rooted. I can't root my phone, because then I lose my warranty. Afaik, you need a rooted device to even setup a macro app/screen recording bot

Yes but that video is a short clip, maintaining that click speed on a setup like that is probably pretty annoying and something no one would be able to keep up with for more than an hour.

Also, how can you prove your alt accounts were being used on a phone at the time of the incident, or prove what phone you were using? There's nothing that can prove you didn't cheat at that exact moment, best you can do is take more precautions next time.

The account on the phone that was dragged is under the same graalID

Doesn't show what specific phone was used, there's just a lot of conditions that can't be proven or disproven.

Remember when all the attention threads like this would get is 'do not discuss bans here, send toonslab an email with an appeal' ?

^

So now Y’all can ask for answers after you’ve done your ban :) :)

Each device has a specific graalID, my phone's graalID should be the same one that was dragged, and staff should have a record of it in their ban history

Yes but; he is not banned and this method of farming is common.
Ban threads aren't allowed (and his prior one was closed) because Graalians isn't an official support site and staff won't use Graalians like so.

I think because this method of farming has become common it's important to have a discussion like this, given public information we can provide answers that can benefit people who do this and how to take proper precautions. The thread is more about farming techniques than Aguzo being banned. We can easily infer why an innocent person may be banned for this so hopefully people who choose to farm like this can see that and realize how to do it without coming off as cheating.

Auto-farming 3 accounts at once by hand for durations of time is just something people should know to avoid doing for obvious reasons once you factor in how unlikely it is, especially using unidentified accounts.

Didn't you uninstall and reinstall? That means the graalID for the dragged account is gone, and you could have used physical objects to do it.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think e-mail is required as well for a lot of these checks, which is why it's required when using Toonslab support.

Even when I uninstalled the game, the ID remained the same, but on each device it was different
My Galaxy s8, the one I was dragged on, remained the same

Unless they change after a certain point, without the owner's knowledge
My main account has the same ID, no matter which device I run it on

I still have my toonslab ticket numbers saved, and I included the ID for my phone in one of them

There are ways to cheat without having a rooted phone, so all of this is irrelevant, especially when you've posted a video using a physical object to automatically farm for you.

Fairpoint..Can staff clarify on 2things;
Are you allowed to be playing on multiple accounts at same time(whether identied or not) to give player advantage i.e here gaining more money.
+
Aren’t players who get banned on one account(whether main or not-if sharing same ip) can’t/shouldn’t go on another account to play anyway?

for both I’d say they probably aren’t allowed but here seems to ignore it and pass it off like you can.

We have always been allowed to use multiple accounts? That's not even the case in Aguzo's ban.
I don't see anything about your second point anywhere in the thread, no one stated that you're allowed to use an alt account if your main is banned. If your main is banned, you're not allowed to play graal regardless of the account you're using till the full time ban duration is finished.

From my understanding, an advantage is in competition. There is no leaderboard for farming/earning gralats
I spent time saving up gralats with one account in order to purchase each conveyor belt (worth 500 each)

I started with 50 conveyor belts in order to use the auto horse farm (25k) + switches and barries = 60k or so
I bought 50 more in order to setup the 2nd sword farm on the right side of my house (25k)
Guild house, my 3rd sword farm, has 40 conveyor belts (20k)

Just the conveyor belts = 70k gralats
Switches = 35k and barriers = 10k

The total cost is 115k. I didn't have that amount immediately in order to build the 3 separate systems

It's like saying that college/uni students can't bring in laptops, because someone can't afford it
or a soccer mom telling the team's coach that their kid should be allowed to play just as much, if not more than their best player

- *The "Are you there?" messages pop up.*
- *Player proceeds to spam the sword buttons due to not paying attention.*
- *Admin gets automatically notified and warps to the suspects.*
- *Admin drags the players to check for macro's/botting.*
- *Player proceeds to spam the sword buttons due to not paying attention.*
- Admin concludes subject is macroing/botting and bans players on the spot.
- *Player checks devices a little bit later and finds himself banned.*

This is my conclusion to what happened.
This is an incredibly flawed way of handling this though.

Aguzo should have been given time to react though and it also doesn't change the fact that the bans were given due to the admin thinking you can't spamclick on 3 accounts.

Sadly you can't get very indepth with detecting bots in a 2.5D game either way though.
Situations like this will probably keep happening due to bad detection and admins failing to properly identify these things.

After I was dragged, 1-2 seconds (which was 5-10 sword slashes) I reacted, and typed "I'm not botting"
Unless the staff left immediately after dragging me, which wouldn't make sense

I also saw that I was banned at the time that I was banned, I wasn't away from my phone

Closing thread because it's just turned to the same back and forth about you being banned.

Anyone who auto farms be careful to take the proper precaution, and I suggest you stick to one account.

Choosing to try and efficiently maintain two or more accounts by hand is at your own risk, especially three accounts due to how unlikely it actually is someone can pull that off for durations of time, and there should be no surprise that staff discourage this.