Fixed.

I'd like to mention something. This thread is a- was supposed to be a more civilized debate than the Top 10 Thread. (Look how that turned out) But also it's more than just sparring. I think everyone is fully aware of everyone else's opinions by now on PC sparring.

Now, can anyone think of anywhere else where a PC or an iClient would dominate elsewhere? Like towering, certain events, viewing window, etc. Perhaps certain areas of the game are more tolerable for certain clients than others? (Deadwood, Snowtown, etc?)

Edit: Instead of bashing one another, let's try this: Try and use every example, detail or fact you can to support your argument as to why one is superior or why they are somewhat equal. Not just about sparring, but anything you can think of. I know that's what some people have been trying to do for the longest time, but I just want to see where everyone stands here.

Now, without quoting others or criticizing one another or just looking for a senseless fight. I strongly encourage everyone to put out a well thought out response to the thread. With all the arguing going on for the past I don't know...10 pages, it's been hard to see where everyone is coming from and why they believe that.

Already at this stage of my reading I have mixed feelings about the intention of your post. Here you claim that you have set together a thesis within the earlier pages of this topic and are attempting to clear up your previous thoughts in a single post. One who did not read your previous posts would not be entirely which position you are holding but surely they will learn soon enough. At the same time, this is where you lose your credibility; you begin calling your adversaries "unintelligent people" for not comprehending the "obvious things" you have stated beforehand. This destroys your objectivity on the issue.

Here we begin getting a glimpse of your position; Facebook is "easier" to spar than on an iOS application. How is it "easier"? We do not know yet but being a centerpiece to your argument, you probably will explain it later on with hard facts.

The confusion starts here. The reason why you claimed Facebook is easier really comes down to preference and opinion; Three sides can be taken in a thread called PC Client vs iDevice Client: the PC or the iDevice is the better client or they both perform equally. You clearly do not seem to support the uncommon viewpoint stating the iDevice systems are the best to spar with. This leaves you with the other options. You say that the egalitarian arguments are "fine" yet if a single advantage for a PC can be proven, the foundation of their arguments will collapse.

An attack on the character instead of the argument only makes a fool of yourself. Anyway, it is analogy time! Your first argument of the entire post will be before my eyes in a matter of seconds! I cannot wait.
I am left disappointed with this analogy. If bowling would equivalent of the action of sparring while the bunny slippers and bowling shoes would be an iDevice and a PC respectively would this not imply that sparring is designed for the PC community while the iDevice players must suck it up. The point that "everyone is wearing bowling shoes" would mean that PC players compose the majority of GraalOnline Classics playerbase which on the contrary is the exact opposite. Why use such an analogy when you attempt to convince your readers that the centrist argument that only opinion and preferences matter.
Wait a minute... although you are using a terrible analogy, you are attempting to prove not which system is the best but rather that it is "fair" to use a PC in a spar match against iDevice players. Why did you not say so earlier?

No!! Please not another analogy where coincides with the game! On a side note, I'm pretty sure an analogy needs to be accompanied with an explanation in order to direct your reader to your argument. Perhaps if you thought of doing so, you would notice how weak this analogy is.

So are these advantages or not? I'm pretty sure substantial evidence can back both of those you named. Why use the word "claim"? The more you concede to these advantages, the weaker your position ends up being by strengthening the argument for more boundaries between iDevice and PC. Having exclusive system benefits creates an unfair and unbalanced game. You will surely concede to this point correct?
May I give the reasons why I believe some people use an Idevice to spar? They don't own a PC. They are not in the proximity of a PC. They prefer the easy portability of an iDevice. They are a better iDevice sparrer.They believe the hassle of reaching a PC simply to spar is not worth the time. They believe that abusing of the PC advantages over an iDevice majority is unfair.A sibling may be using the PC at the moment.Consider your question answered. I'm positive if we all put our heads together, we can name plenty of other reasons. Many which you cannot be held accountable for.
You can add the few reasons I added to that list. I'm sure you can't possibly blame the iDevice sparrer when his PC is unavailable. (a sibling using it or sent to the manufacturer for reparations)
Now although I agree with your second and third reasons, the first is plain wrong. Playing of a specific system does not justify the unregulated use of system unique techniques such a strafing when in spar matches. Let's say a new client is released on the Android. This new client has an unsolvable and severe bug where Android players can instantly kill another sparrer in a single hit. Although the level of unfairness greatly differs, using your argument would be it is the iDevice and PC players fault for not sparring on the Android.
Another long attack on the character.

The first sentence of your post stated you already formulated your thesis within the last five or six pages . The thing you are forgetting is that a thesis is subject to counter-arguments, something you seem keen on ignoring. You can't expect everyone to share the same point of view as you. What are you trying to prove with this list? Everything retaining to this topic will fall in this list.

TD just did what I was too lazy to. I vote him for president.

http://puu.sh/21Emg

99.99% convinced GOAT is just wasting our time and wants someone to talk to.

Heres my analogy of this entire thread;

Thallen is throwing flaming fireballs at the iDevice players and they're simply dousing the flames with a water gun that doesn't replenish its ammo. When Thallen takes a break from breathing out fireballs, they quickly shoot their water guns only to realize hes a ****ing fire breathing freak and their attacks are futile. However, due to the sheer amount of iDevice players, the water tank of the gun is constantly being replenished, not by ingenuity, rather sheer **********. Due to the endless battle, ashes created have littered the ground, the arguments becoming a time of the past, still existing, but forgotten by everyone.

edit: what did i just write.....................

You're comparing Thallen calling people "unintelligent" to fire lol. Anyways the fact that nearly every post Thallen is rambling on acting superior to everyone without providing any actual argument, just calling people idiots is actually making me believe he doesn't have the mental capacity to think of an actual argument which is making me question his intelligence. Anyway, GOAT Hydro pumped those ***** fireballs.

Didn't seem like it to me. Anti-PC-ers have such a poor argument. :(

At least we have an argument.

Because Thallen doesn't have arguments himself? When Shannon said anti-pcers have poor arguments, shes relating the word 'poor' to some standard, which in this case would be Thallen's arguments.

This comment is such an half-assed comment meant to provide some kind of doubt within our case, which we don't have.

PC has greater mobility by far, sense the up and right arrow keys over-write nearly all movement commands, THATS ALL. Have a decent PC? Use it and shut up, I know I'd use PC. But chances are, you don't have a Windows2000, but much rather, probably some new-age (or half way decent) computer that you refuse to use. Using PC or not, I wish you'd all stop caring who is on what.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfID...t=HL1360706219

I feel like I want to do a Pokemon analogy here :D

We all have our preferences in Pokemon. Some people enjoy the tough looking ones like Aggron while others might prefer the cute looking ones like Butterfree. Despite your preferences, these Pokemon all have their own stats: Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed. At the end of the day, some Pokemon are simply stronger than the others.

Suddenly, an expansion is released a few years post the official release of one of the major game's where you can compete with others online (I believe nothing like this has been done on a Pokemon game but for the analogy, Nintendo decided they would release an expansion for some extra moolah). The minor additions includes an increase in the level cap by 5 and adds a x1.1 XP boost. All this could be obtained for a simple 20$ (credit card only)

A few days after the release, two trainers decide to battle. One owns the new expansion while the other one does not. Let's call these two trainers EXPY (expansion:yes) and EXPN (expansion: no) for practical reasons.

Just because EXPY has a distinct advantage doesn't necessarily result in instant wins. Could be EXPN has the right types of Pokemon. Could be EXPY had the brilliant idea throws out a level 105 Metapod (Not even a Metapod which evolved from a Caterpie thus not having Tackle or String Shot) Maybe, despite having an XP bonus, did not sufficiently train his Pokemon enough when compared to EXPN.

Now in the event that EXPY wins a battle where both trainers have Pokemon of similar levels, we can never know if he won because of his advantages or not. Now of course a win is a win; it will be counted to his W-L ratio. EXPY won the battle legitimately by the game rules but hidden behind his ratio lies the uncertainty whether he won the games due to his advantage or skill.

Now this what I think on the issue of PC vs iDevice sparring. Since it is obvious that small advantages are found in in PC sparring (strafing and keyboard layout), how could a PC player find pride in his W-L ratio when he/she plays with a handicap in every spar matches. Problem with this handicap is that it does not even attempt to level the players strengths.

What arguments? Please tell me because calling someone an idiot is just his excuse for not having one.

I am a little shocked that a few of you continue to claim that I am not responding to points in this thread when I've probably pounded out 300,000 keystrokes that continue to be disregarded and ignored. So, I'll summarize the argument in some Q&A format.



Person: PC players have an advantage in spars!
Thallen: I won't ask you to prove your point because I agree with the opinion. It is also my opinion that it is easier to spar on PC than on an iDevice.

Person: It is not fair that PC players get to spar against iDevice users!
Thallen: Yes it is, because the fairness equation is there. You have the option of choosing your device, and so do I. You choose to use iDevice, and I choose to use PC.

Person: PC players' movement speed is inherently faster than iDevice players!
Thallen: No, it is not. This is not a fact, so please stop saying it. There is a cap on your speed for both devices. If you move slower than the cap, it is because your PC or iDevice has horrible specs, and that'd be your own fault.

Person: PC players walk through hits!
Thallen: You simply do not understand mechanics that you must deal with when sparring, such as horrible lag and delay. It'd also help if you understood the difference between clientside and serverside hit detection. iDevice users seem to make up the majority of the lagger community, by the way. I'm using ethernet while you're using 3G or spotty WiFi.

Person: PC players can hack easier!
Thallen: Both devices are vulnerable in this way. If your opinion is that it is easier to hack on PC than on iDevice, then I agree. Nonetheless, the possibility exists for both. In the sparring community today, I've only ever suspected two or three people of hacking in spars. I think that they use speed, but it has never bothered me because they are not good enough or active enough to make an impact. I don't exactly feel threatened by a 3% increase in speed. If you want to help prevent this problem, please plead with iClassic administrators to make better detection. I'd love to see it as well. It is not logical to criminalize an entire platform of players because you saw someone speed hacking in a spar one day.

Person: Hundreds of people use the iDevice while only a few use the PC! This is unfair!
Thallen: No, it isn't. Both have the option of using PC.

Person: I use iDevice because I want it to spar fairly against other players!
Thallen: Please realize that you are making up your own set of rules for the game. That is what losers do. Please think like a winner. Once again, the game gives you a choice. You cannot dictate what I choose, and I cannot dictate what you choose.

Person: The fact that there is an iDevice room proves that it is unfair!
Thallen: No, it does not. It only proves that there are stubborn players who have complained to the point where iClassic administrators have found it beneficial to create a room just for that group of players.

Person: I don't have a PC!
Thallen: I'm sorry, but that is not my fault at all and I won't allow it to change how I play the game.

Person: iClassic is for iDevice users!
Thallen: No, it isn't. The game allows you to play by Facebook. You cannot make up rules for the game. The game makes the rules.

Person: How come you won't spar me on an iDevice?
Thallen: Again, because the game gives you a choice. Let us assume that I did spar you on an iDevice and you beat me. What was proven? Well, you've proven that you were better than me in a spar on the iDevice platform. You haven't proven that you are a better sparrer or a more "fair" sparrer. If you want to prove yourself as the better sparrer, you will go on the device you play the best on and I will do the exact same. Why are you the only side that gets a choice in this argument?

Person: The only reason you're better than me is because you're using a PC!
Thallen: Well, that's false. At this point, you're just making excuses because you're unable to accept your own failures. If it was true, why not use a PC?



Have I missed anything? Does anyone have any new breakthrough that they'd care to share? All that I'm doing is repeating the same exact things that I've said time and time again. You guys have introduced nothing new to the argument in the past five pages. Ask me a question, any question regarding your inability to accept the "fairness" of sparring on iClassic and I promise that I will answer it. I bet I can even quote something I've said in one of my former posts that have already answered it.

This thread was about whether pc have the advantage or not, not about fairness or anything else you just rambled on about. Your first point said it all, I don't know what you're trying to argue with all your irrelevant points.

Hmm.

Yeah, he doesn't get it. I dunno, there's not much left to say.

So in conclusion of this thread:

1. You can have your own opinion on which device has the advantage. There are too many variables and personal quirks about each device that it's extremely hard to prove. It is a matter of preference. It doesn't matter anyway, because you have the option of using either.
2. Neither are unfair for that reason.

The thread is a circle and it will continue to be a circle because:

• Certain bad sparrers cannot own up to the fact that other players spar better than them
• Certain players have tried to spar on PC and aren't as good with it
• Certain players do not own a PC and try to blame this on the game itself
• Certain players feel as if, because the game was available on iDevice for a certain amount of time first, that they are being cheated and treated unfairly… by being given an option

I can't imagine how someone could logically question anything I've said in this post and the last one. But don't worry, both will be overlooked and the argument will continue back at the start.

Well, narrow minded kids can't logically think so I wouldn't expect you to.

How narrow-minded of me to address every single post brought to my attention, repeatedly, for no one's benefit but your own. You're doing exactly what you and your side of the argument does best: repeating the same things over and over, deflecting everything that has been said to you, and just making no sense overall.

It’s clear you lost the argument since you already agreed that pcs have the advantage. So why keep going just to save your pride. You have lost to the “dumb stupid kids” you lold so much. The worst part is that we didn’t really have to say anything you got beaten using your own statements. Now do everyone a favor and go back to your top 10 spar thread where you can make yourself feel better by feeling your ego with bs. It’s time to let this one die, the only real loser here is the community that had to put up with this childish argument
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Oh and Thallen lol?
ok now im really done no point to go on

I'm honestly not even going to read that, GOAT. Until you can learn to format your posts and use the most basic punctuation, I won't waste the time and effort. From the quick skim I gave it, I doubt it would be worth it anyway! If someone else wants to read over his vomit and highlight anything interesting that requires me to repeat something that I've already said for the 60th time, feel free.

lol gotengraal was right everytime you get owned you result to calling people stupid. you read everything else why stop now :(

im a help you get motivated while you think of what to say

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THALLLLLLLEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNN

• Ctrl+F
• "stupid"
• 3 results found
• All posted by you

I'll stop giving you attention for now, as it's clearly what you're starving for. You're a very embarrassing person. I'm really not trying to insult you or personalize this, only giving you an explanation as to why I won't even do as much as acknowledge your posts in this thread any longer. I'm pretty confident that every level-headed person reading this thread will probably agree on that if they just take a quick glimpse at your last few posts. Losing an argument as someone like you is impossible, because you lack what is required to come to that realization.

Translated to a format you may find easier to comprehend: LOL DUDE ALL THE STUFF U SAYD IN ARGUMENT DION'T MAKE SENSE BECAUSE WHEN I ANSWERED THEM ALL A FEW TIMES WAT U DID WAS IGNORE THME N JUST REPEAT THE SAME STUFF LMAO DUDE MABYE U SHOULD PRACTICE A SPAR MORE SO U DONT HAVE TO CRY U KNOW? HAHA

Good argument, you really gave it your best effort. Here's your trophy:
http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/u...laceTrophy.jpg

Lol yet you still here digging that hole deeper. Just for the record you were the one that quoted me so I would say you were the one that wanted my attention. Well you got it and now you’re regretting you made that fatal mistake.
IM SOFA KING READ TAR ED

All of GOAT's above responses infringe upon another question Thallen already answered in his post. "Speeding up PC, but not possible on iPhone?" Remember, he already correctly stated that there is a cap on all speed, so that is not an issue. Both are exactly the same 100% of the time. Fairness is exactly what this thread is about.... I don't understand why you seem to think it isn't if you've been trying to prove that it is unfair this entire time. "Switch and make it even?" Yeah, you contradicted yourself 4-5 times in your post, and I didn't even read the entire thing.

Also, I completely lost it when GOAT said, "SHOULDN’T EVERYONE BE ON THE SAME HIT DETECTION?" Hahah, they are! You can actually train your brain to believe something that isn't true, and I believe you are becoming an expert of self-deceit.

Everyone managed to not see my post that actually had to do with the thread's title. I am sad now. </3

Did you still not notice it? Okay. Here. :)

(Edit):
Conclusion:

PC = Better. Either switch to it or stop complaining. Nobody cares.

http://puu.sh/222qr

Get ready. He's coming with his tongue out, drooling everywhere, beating his chest and wearing a plastic helmet. Here comes the most brilliant retort you've ever read, Graalians.com community.



You're right in everything you said. However, certain people have desperately tried to extend the argument to compensate for their poor performance and overall lack of skill and success in spars on either platform. Good and applicable reply to the original intention of this thread.



+rep for the most sensible post I've seen thus far.

Aren't there device specific rooms now?
If you think that one has an advantage over the other, don't spar people who use it. It's literally as simple as that.

Right. But their argument is, "Although we are both given a choice of device, our choice should set precedence for what is the fair standard because (according to us) we intentionally disadvantage ourselves."

If that doesn't make sense to you, then we're in the same shoes.

LOL THAT ROCKY - EYE OF THE TIGER VID. I laughed so much it fits right with the thread xD.

Lol? he was trying to make it seem like it was different by saying people should learn the difference of the two hit detections.
dam this helmet is heavy wuala were u amazed lol

Is there anything other than sparring where a certain client may have an advantage over another in the game? Because I think we've exhausted the whole spar thing more than it needs to. Just because if one is unfair in sparring doesn't make it unfair overall in the entire game. There needs to be more evidence to justify the claims made because no one's arguments has seemed to convince anyone here.

On an unrelated note, PC players cannot walk through saints as iDevice players would.

I'd say that's relevant to the thread. :)

Since its an advantage iDevice players have over PC players. That's a start, any other non-spar examples?

PC vs iDevice shouldn't be compatible.

The game is meant to be PC vs PC and iDevice vs iDevice. How can you tell if the player from PC is better than you playing with a iDevice? No argument. Games are meant to be played fairly and equal. Either you go play PC Era/Classic or iDevice Era/Classic to train and play one another.

Comparing PC to iDevice is like comparing Baseball to Basketball and the GameBoy Advance to the Wii.

+1

I don't see the point of removing the option though. If someone chooses to go to mixed spar rooms, there shouldn't be a problem. Some people are confident sparring anyone with the device they're using.

Again, the separate rooms exist for this reason. You don't have to use the mixed rooms if you don't want to.

But PC users do PK btw and can do things which normal iDevice Pkers can't do.

But how can you prove you are a better player/sparrer when you can't compare each other at all?

Edit: "Again, the separate rooms exist for this reason. You don't have to use the mixed rooms if you don't want to."

Agreed.

By practice and determination you can eventually feel confident to challenge other devices players.

Pixel sparring can make you confident? Haha.

You'd be surprised to see it does wonders on the ego for most people...

My iPhone 5 can handle crowded areas much more smoothly than my computer using Skyrider (My computer is quite well equipped). I don't know if I could call this an advantage, or just a downside to Classic being loaded through a web browser on computers. This could be fixed by making a iClassic PC downloadable client, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like that is a realistic possibility.

I've heard something about PC clients not being able to slide on ice. It's a problem because in an ice-race event a PC player would have more stability in the race, but skates do make you move faster. Anyway, that was forever ago when I heard that so I'm not sure if that's still around.

1- Multiple comparisons is a more accurate form of measurement than a quick, one-time test. Much less margin of error.
2- Device-specific problems shouldn't propel an idea that all similar devices perform similarly. I've connected to Graal for 3 years on an iPhone, and I've never had any problems regarding speed. Your device could simply be old, or using too much CPU, perhaps.
3- too many and too lazy pls.. let's end arguments, not continue them
4- If they are, why are you discussing the difference between them? (See Thallen/Dawnstar's posts.)
5- I don't remember giving advice on the topic. But I also don't recall being deceitful towards someone. In fact, I take pride in my honesty.

Haha. I've disagreed with guild members before. Does my personal point of view have to back up another person's view just because we are in the same guild? Irrelevant, again...

• Yes, PC players cannot walk through sainted players like iPhone players can.
• No, PC players still do not slide on ice like iPhone players do. Whether you think this is fair or not is irrelevant to the situation: The sliding effect requires a feature that is not available on the Facebook client that is readily available on the iPhone client. (This is what I was told by staff.)
• PC players also cannot see particle effects like snow, rain, lightning, hug gani hearts, etc. because of the above reason. That's just the way it is, and has been. Nobody can change that, that I know of.

Xavier is half correct... The PC Graal client would be able to support the features the Facebook client cannot. iClassic is actually already supported on the PC Graal client. It is a hidden server, along with iEra, iZone, and the Dev. servers. However, if your account is not on the staff list, you will be automatically kicked from the server immediately after logging on. Your account is also recorded onto a list of attempts to log on the server unauthorized. So the client is a possibility, but highly unlikely.

this type of thread is getting extremely annoying, can we just stop? didn't read anything because i'm too lazy to read it and its always the same thing. my response will be based on sparring because i don't care how pc use affects pking, you're all just spamming in a narrow area, it doesn't really matter who is using what.

being on an ipod 5g, i'm not going to complain about pc walkspeed like everyone else does. but there is one fact that will forever remain. pc players can strafe. sure, you can say "strafing only accounts for a hit once every few spars" but that would be untrue. ive been seeing a lot of pc players recently who base their entire spar strategy on strafing. and for the future "that's your fault for letting it affect you, it is easy to predict if a strafe is coming," no, it isn't. us idevice sparrers are used to the same sets of movement, we aren't used to seeing somebody suddenly walk straight up while facing towards the right. sure, maybe you guys can predict strafes, but that's because you're familiar with strafing and understand how it works.

pcs > idevices, not sure how anyone can actually find a logical response to this, but i'll be waiting to continue this pointless flame war when you answer me. wish you'd all just shut up though and realize pcs have an advantage over idevices. the only people who are arguing for the pc side are pc players.

I've said time and time again in this thread that I agree that it is probably easier to spar on PC. I've never sparred on an iDevice really, but it seems reasonable to think so based on the keyboard, as a peripheral, vs. the touchscreen.

Again though, it can't be said any more plainly. How are you in any position to complain if you're making the choice to play using an iDevice and you queue up in a mixed spar room? I've never seen so many people whine about something that they can easily change. Kind of nuts to me. You either change it and reap these benefits that are apparently available to you, or you shut up and deal with it. Seriously, that simple.

So far, Comyt is the only voice on the iDevice side that should be taken seriously in this thread. He actually spars and knows the discussion at hand. It's just that the majority of us don't argue about advantages. If you tell me I have an advantage because I'm on PC, I tell you you're stupid for sparring on an iPod and putting yourself at a disadvantage. If you don't own a PC, then tough luck. I don't care. That doesn't change my preference and I'm just going to keep playing the game.

only for strafing now, every other excuse against pcs doesn't make sense at all, and they're just acts of desperation by lame idevices here who don't have a strong enough argument. probably because every idevice on these forums sucks at spar and doesn't realize that pcs can be defeated, they actually believe the stuff they are saying.

sparring in a different room would be cowardly and show that somebody doesn't have the guts to attack a pc player. i'm not terrible like every other idevice, i actually have a chance of winning. i refuse to allow pc players to walk through our scrub server acting like they dominate every living idevice by hiding in the idevice streak room. its an honor thing.

??

Yeah, that's cool. That is why I have a certain amount of respect for you, Kevin91, Tae, and maybe two or three other iDevice players who spar actively. Even if sometimes one of those players does throw out the PC excuse, it's probably just out of frustration.

Some people choose to spar by iDevice because they just like it more, even though they know it might put them at a mechanical disadvantage. Some obviously may not have PCs, etc. I respect the ones who spar against PC players and don't cry 24/7, because I understand that it's probably difficult for them. I respect them but it's not like I feel bad for them. It's a game and you're supposed to play to win. I'm not giving anyone a handout just because they wanna spar on an iPod.

It's rarely the good iDevice sparrers who complain about sparring against PC players, anyway. Just overall though, for anyone who does, it makes no sense. You can't complain about something you have the freedom to change or do something about. And anyone who does complain shouldn't expect a PC sparrer to switch to an iDevice, either. Some people just need to man up or try switching devices. There's no other alternative, unless they want to keep crying on a forum and losing.

If you never have a iDevice, what's the point of arguing? There's no point. Its a waste of time in my opinion. It goes both ways regarding to the last comment. I'm pretty sure everyone have a PC right now(how do you find Graalonline/Graalians anyways?).