Lets begin.
Supporting team: NYN, 8bit1000, Bam, Yephenpeace, Cat612, Chelterrar, DrDoctor, Higbey, Izarin, Kyro122, Madhog, Maikeru, Mij, Mr.$imons, P.i, sebbel, Shaun, Shmegg, Xavier, CrossCross, Gambit Drakul (21)
Opposing team: Froggy Krueger, Ike, Koolaid, mr froggy, Pazx, Shadow, Skitz, TylerMysTe, EP (9)
Subject: Removing KOTH
Supporting Team: It should stay or be improved
Opposing Team: It should be removed
I would like to first quote
post #94 of Moderator,
NYN
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We're gonna go with what people in feedback say about this. So far most people love it. It might just stay.
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First off, don't prove adminstrators false because they know the graal town people more than you do so thats first a bold statement from the admin himself, NYN
I would also like to quote
post #103 from the opposing side of KoTH, Pazx himself
I've come across very few people who like it  |
This is a self quote from Pazx himself.
Quote #110 (Mr Froggy)
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Gosh pazx cant you see we all love KOTH its you against like 20 other people i think we win pazx, KOTH FTW!!!!
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This was before mr Froggy continued support of opposing against KOTH
Quote #115 (Pazx)
a
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First, it's slow. I hate the fact that the attackers (assuming the number of attackers is less than the number of defenders) run in, kill the defenders, then wait a minute for the defenders to come back in to find the flag only dropped to 180, then kill the defenders who in that time will have boosted the flag up to 210, then you just have a little bit more idling around the flag, then kill them, then wait, then kill them, then wait, then probably die a few times. When there are more attackers than defenders, the flag still ticks over so slowly, it just starts earlier as soon as there are more attackers than defenders.
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The words "First, its slow" is declared a personal opinion.
"Flag still ticks over so slowly" can be replied against
Reply: Flag can still be replenished by slashing it. No need to judge by size
Quote #115 b
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It think KotH reduces the advantage defending has always had. In my opinion, it's meant to be easier to defend than to attack, and if the speed which the flag decreases increased with the ratio of attackers:defenders (which would please me otherwise) it would throw out that balance even more.
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words bolded negates the argument completely. It is indeed an opinion
Opinion =/= argument
Quote #115 c
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It's quantity over quality with KotH. It allows large groups to control forts while small ones struggle. If KotH was meant to allow newer guilds to take forts (as some people have mentioned I believe), it certainly doesn't serve that purpose as they have no chance against large groups of defenders.
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Decision by size is considered false. Quality can still overcome Quantity in some ways possible.
Quote #115 d
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One of the most enjoyable parts of Graal in my (and several others's) opinion is defending or attacking forts in small groups and still coming out on top. This doesn't happen with KotH. It's so frustrating you're defending and there's just a few more attackers than defenders who just run around the flag while it drops. Same goes when you're attacking, trying to kill the hordes of defenders and by the time you've killed enough for the flag to start dropping they're already coming back.
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words bolded negates the argument completely. It is indeed an opinion
Opinion =/= argument
Quote #116 (skits)
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First of all, i agree completely with Pazx's opinion. King of The Hill not only has no place on the classic server, but , contrary to what most admins and non-tower takers think, is generally not liked by those of us who actually take towers on a regular basis.
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argument is completely negated. argument cannot be focused on professional players only
Quote #116 B
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i understand going with what people say they like, obviously. but what youve got to also take into account is the fact that people who never take towers ( ie. people in social, school, roleplay, or other such guilds) outnumber the people who do. and many of those people are just going to vote yes because lets face it, half of them hope any agreement with admins will lead to them becomeing one. what i mean to say by all this is that people who aren't affected by King of The Hill, or at least hardly affected are voting the most for it.
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argument is completely negated. argument cannot be focused on professional players only. argument cannot be a direct attack to a non supporting/opposing group not related to the argument
Quote #116 C
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King of the hill promotes noob recruiting. i know that isn't really an issue point from an admin standpoint, but from a tower taker one it is. as is demonstrated by a LOT of people who focus on building their stats, quality is valued. Azrael also said that he thought king of the hill would promote an active elite group of tower takers. it would do the exact opposite.
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argument is completely negated. argument cannot be focused on professional players only. argument cannot be a direct attack to a non supporting/opposing group not related to the argument
Supporting
Quote #118 from Yephenpeace
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Lol! I agree 100% with what you said Maikeru! One thing though, i don't see how it caters to quantity over quality at all. Say there is 10 people in the flag room and only 5 people are attacking, these "quality" players could easily kill 2 people each which would give them the tower. It's more so about quality over quantity in my opinion, because you need to kill a lot of people instead of slashing a flag continuously in large groups. I also notice everyone against KotH is using this complete BS excuse for the fans by saying they don't even take towers. I'm sorry, but if someone is concerned with KotH or has an opinion about it they obviously take towers from time to time. Pazx, you are not some elite tower taker who's opinion trumps all of us peasants' views. If the majority of the people you are speaking to at the moment like it, obviously people like it.
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Supporting quote is from Yephenpeace himself
Quote #126 (Skits)
in the current KoTH system, both the defenders and attacks respawn outside. NOT in the flag room. i wasn't trying to say anything about whether or not that's a good or bad thing or whether it makes forts harder, i was simply correcting a post azrael made saying that you did respawn in flag room on KoTH, which is untrue.
honestly, your ignorance on this fact just goes further to prove that you dont use KoTH enough to really pretend to be the expert here.
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Top half statement in consideration: "both the defenders and attackers respawn outside"
Reply: Statement is not a problem
argument is completely negated. argument cannot be focused on professional players only. argument cannot be a direct attack to a non supporting/opposing group not related to the argument
Quote #126 B
- promotes "noob recruiting"
-Quantity ( i think we've reiterated this one quite enough)
-slowness of flag health counter decrease
Main problems with KoTH defending
-again, noob recruiting
-quantity
-slowness of flag healing
-activity
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Statement in Consideration: Noob recruiting
Consideration: Negated. Considered a Direct attack against a non supporting/opposing group
Statement in consideration: slowness of flag healing/decrease
Consideration: Statement is not a problem
Statement in consideration: activity
Consideration: Statement maybe a problem
Repost of
Quote #128 (Maikeru)
My Honest Opinion:
King of the Hill seems like a nice addition and so far i don't see any members complaining other than the ones on this topic. There has been guilds who still take guild forts with King of the Hill and they still catch up to 1000 hours and claim their hats. I don't see why people complain about it but honestly, i don't think that there are guilds thats not trying.
Maybe the feel on taking guild forts is not the same... Maybe Castle and Snow's difficulty for some guilds have been bumped up... Idk but in the majority of what we're seeing so far, people like it... and it hasn't past a year... So take time to get used to it...
And if your opinion remains the same, then be more than free to email classic some feedback on it. This topic has been nothing but a scribbled contract set in flames
Heres a few suggestions you can feedback if you want to:
-Have Castle's defenders respawn at the fountain or the bottom of the castle
-Have Snow's defenders respawn at the middle of the entrance room
-Have Castle/Snow excluded from King of The Hill
-Maybe add a tower exclusively to King of The Hill (and the others excluded)
-Any other suggestion that improves King of The Hill
Thank you Pazx,Serenity, and Skits for your honest suggestions but i don't want to bother wasting your time seeing as this argument can last on and on permanently till we're all blue in the face. If you just don't like it, please Feedback some suggestions to improve it or honest reasons why you don't like it.
I can argue here as long as i want to but its best to set a main point straight and get this over with. And im not mad at all. I just find it a bit annoying on how some points is all about how "Slow" and how "Stupid" King of the Hill is with no reasonable statements.
You can't blame King of the Hill for what it is and that if you can't accept what King of the Hill is, just feedback it. I should've just said it as this from the very beginning instead of having to cram my points through your heads.
Here ^_^ :
http://www.graalians.com/forums/show...1037#post41037
I created the King of the Hill topic (seeing as this one has been flamed sort of).
If anyone wants to leave a suggestion,complaint,question,or improvement regarding King of the Hill, please post it here. Don't spam/flame please.
-Maikeru
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Its considered a repost for statement
Opposing group has voted in poll
Results of December 16 2011 were 18-8 on the fact that it shall be improved rather than removed
Quote #132 (EP)
I dislike it as well king of the hill is more favorable for those who noob recruit i remember before me and pauli would be able to hold castle for a good while an now if u get outnumbered they just run around flagroom and your sure to lose it.
King of the hill is a nice idea but they can change it up make it 1 king of the hill tower but a random tower everyday changes to king of the hill
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Statement is considered a direct attack against a non supporting/opposing group. Statement is negated
Quote #136 (Santa Claus)
I don't really like it because sometimes the guild attacking will go in and have some outside to block the doors and they end up getting the tower by cheating.
Plus the people that are there for the pks are more annoying.
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Statement in Consideration: tower cheating/blocking
Consideration: could be a problem
Quote #150 from Pazx
>1 room where kills count
What. The. Hell. If you're gonna try and prove a point, you might as well check whether you're correct or not, it's not that hard. And snowtown is just as easy to take. In fact, it's easier to take Snow in some situations now.
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conflicted upon own opposing statement
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On top of all that, Castle and Snow were two very basic yet unique forts, and now all the forts are complex because of how the way you played at Castle and Snow has changed.
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Opposing person has negated self statement
Quote #153 (Supporting [DrDoctor])
If you don't like KOTH then don't use those towers. People who dislike KOTH can go to the three other towers left "normal". Why should the fun be ruined for people who like KOTH just because some of the players don't want to walk up the castle steps.
I like the KOTH towers because the guilds can't afk and keep control like they used to.
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Supporting quote is declared an acceptable statement against the opposing team
Quote #154 (Supporting [Izarin])
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staff say that people on iClassic support it more than not. So..... They're not going to make a new tower for only one KOTH. They're not going to make it only Facebook server. Deal with the cards your dealt and go to the other towers. No problem
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Supporting quote is declared an acceptable statement against the opposing team
Inflicting Quote #155 from Pazx
What are you, dense? Are you ******ed or something? I AM THE GOD DAMN KING OF THE CASTLE. I know my stuff.
Kills still count in the room outside the flagroom numbnutz. You just don't spawn somewhere else. Thats like saying kills don't count on the overworld because you spawn where you die.
Snowtown was always easy, is still easy. Harder in some situations, easier in some thanks to KotH. Also, skating around while slashing the flag is rather difficult most the time.
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Boasting Top statement is not considered part of the statement. completely negated
conflicted upon opposing own statement
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On top of all that, Castle and Snow were two very basic yet unique forts, and now all the forts are complex because of how the way you played at Castle and Snow has changed.
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Opposing person has negated self statement
Quote #162 (Opposing[Mr Froggy])
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Even without KOTH its still very difficult to hold castle or snow for weeks.
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statement declares KOTH still feels the same
statement is now used against opposing team
Quote #163 (Supporting[DrDoctor])
Do I have to be much clearer? There are three towers which have the regular system in effect and you can use those three towers while we use the two towers that have KOTH. So I don't see why you need to eliminate KOTH because there are two towers that have it. If I started a thread asking for KOTH on all the towers you would disagree entirely but here you are asking the same thing but with a different system.
Face it, KOTH is going to stay and there's nothing wrong with variety
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Supporting quote is declared an acceptable statement against the opposing team
Quote #173 (Opposing[mr froggy])
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Of course the people that hardly touch these forts get to decide lmao.
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False statement is considered a direct attack against a supporting group. Statement negated
Quote #181 from Pazx
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Once VG and CoM and CJ and AGK retire, wipe the scores and give them all statues (and PULSE). Maybe even go down through PS, NAL, SoS, etc.
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Statement directly attacks non supporting/opposing groups. Completely negated
Conclusion: The opposing team's statements/arguments has been considerly addressed against Direct attack, agreement of KOTH, Opinion and Professionalism.
The Supporting team statements/arguments has been considerly addressed against Variety, Opinion, Direct attack, agreement of KOTH, and agreement for newbies/players/veterans
Final answer: KOTH should not be removed.
KOTH should be tweaked/stayed till conflicted heavily by a worthy amount of players
Suggestions: KOTH should be tweaked according to the following statements
-Glitching/Cheating
-KOTH ticking system
-Blocking entrances
Player Suggestions:
-New KOTH Fort
Supporting team has won the case in which some of the opposing team agreed that people liked it.
Case closed
-Maikeru