Well there are those pet like things that follow you on Zodiac. It would be cool to have those, but I don't know how laggy that would make the server if everyone around the map had one following them.  

It better be cute for the pets in Graal or i'm not buying the pet. It should be 3000 for 2 pets.  

Posted by callimuc

You wouldnt have to create a gani/sprite for each pet. You would need just some sprites (for a basic system using differnt looks) and the gani could use either params or attributes which would require only one gani of each move.

Off server: I have been working on a pet system with snk on iEra which should get pretty much funny. You might have seen me running around with one though. We are planning more things to do with it.

Callimuc, you are correct, I have not even said anything about ganis.
But maybe we should get into that subject too..

Only a few of those would need to be created, depending if the pet slithers, flies, floats, or walks. That means four separate Ganis depending on pet type.

Then you need:
Idle,
Walk,
Eating / drinking,
Sleep,
Bathing,
Yawning.

Six ganis per four types, a gani artist would have to create 24 ganis.

So far that is 24 ganis depending if there are four types of pets.
And 26,280,000 sprites per year per 100 pets bred every two hours, which would be theoretically possible...

Once again, you can probably understand why this system would probably not be accepted. :]

Sorry, I also left out the system to have more than one pet on player and have it shown, having the others in storage... I suppose that could use a database of some sort, or be in the players attributes? Or just be hiding depending on which attribute number you have showing...  

Posted by David K?

I have not even said anything about ganis.
But maybe we should get into that subject too..

Posted by David K?

That is, for 100 people, 438,000 pets per year.
Each pet having lets see.. By the minimum.
1 sprite for idle
2 sprites for walk
2 sprites for sleep (getting up / down and sleeping)
2 sprites for drinking (head in the middle, then down)
2 sprites for bathing (transition between two for bathing?)
3 sprites for breeding (woohoo is complicated)
1 sprite for yawning
2 sprites for gralat getting (open mouth slightly, open mouth fully and fire)

;)

---------------------------------

Posted by David K?

Six ganis per four types, a gani artist would have to create 24 ganis.

So far that is 24 ganis depending if there are four types of pets.
And 26,280,000 sprites per year per 100 pets bred every two hours, which would be theoretically possible...

Posted by callimuc

You wouldnt have to create a gani/sprite for each pet. You would need just some sprites (for a basic system using differnt looks) and the gani could use either params or attributes which would require only one gani of each move.

Like I said you just need the "basic" ganis which would be in your case 6 (drinking/eating, idle, walk, ...). Since you can use parameters/attributes in gani you can get stucked with that ammount of ganis and change the image using parameters/attributes. That way you can have an infinitive ammount of sprites using the 6 ganis as long as the sprite fits the template.  

Posted by callimuc

;)
Like I said you just need the "basic" ganis which would be in your case 6 (drinking/eating, idle, walk, ...). Since you can use parameters/attributes in gani you can get stucked with that ammount of ganis and change the image using parameters/attributes. That way you can have an infinitive ammount of sprites using the 6 ganis as long as the sprite fits the template.

We can agree to disagree. :]

My reason is:
A walking gani may bob up and down by one pixel.
A floating gani would well float..
A slithering gani would be a consistant height.
A flying gani would be floating but less change in height then floating.

You could do this via script, but I think it might get odd when the ganis change and they aren't in the same height position, so it would be better to be done as ganis, I would think.

Posted by David K?

That is, for 100 people, 438,000 pets per year.
Each pet having lets see.. By the minimum.
1 sprite for idle
2 sprites for walk
2 sprites for sleep (getting up / down and sleeping)
2 sprites for drinking (head in the middle, then down)
2 sprites for bathing (transition between two for bathing?)
3 sprites for breeding (woohoo is complicated)
1 sprite for yawning
2 sprites for gralat getting (open mouth slightly, open mouth fully and fire)

I'm still not getting how you think I'm telling how many ganis are needed..
So far the only possible conclusion from this is that 8 could be needed.
(which would mean I'd have to update it to 8*4 to be 32 ganis.)

Yet the only thing talked about were sprites,
and the actions they would be showing.

The word gani or the amount ganis that would be needed was never stated,
and that was intentional due to me only talking about it graphic wise.

One cannot talk about sprites unless you think about the actions it may do.
One can also create more ganis than sprites by using different sprites together.
For all I know, more than 8 ganis per type could be created...

A players body has 79 sprites,
and I'm sure there are more than 100 ganis for them.

I'm not trying to argue with you,
but at least analyze my statements
before trying to call me out.

Also, do you not agree that creating ones own pet,
and the staff having to create different breeds of the pets
for breeding purposes is a not so well idea?

Or so that was the belief I got from the post.
No one was said to create the breeds, so the responsibility
would then be pushed to the staff members..


I intentionally made my last post going along side you
and not against you because I didn't think you realized what you were saying.  

Posted by David K?

We can agree to disagree. :]

My reason is:
A walking gani may bob up and down by one pixel.
A floating gani would well float..
A slithering gani would be a consistant height.
A flying gani would be floating but less change in height then floating.

It´s the graphics fault than, not the ganis one. Just like with the bodys. You can create bodies and they will just fu** up in the walk gani or you can make bodies properly and have them not fu** up.

Posted by David K?

I'm still not getting how you think I'm telling how many ganis are needed..
So far the only possible conclusion from this is that 8 could be needed.
(which would mean I'd have to update it to 8*4 to be 32 ganis.)

Just realized it proberly with the 4 different kind of pets. Well I gues that this would be one of the smallest problems since there could be checks withing the (custom?)-uploads. Also 32 ganis is not that much if you look at the ammount of ganis you need for different body actions (mostly weapons)

Posted by David K?

Yet the only thing talked about were sprites,
and the actions they would be showing.

Could be done the same way as the bodies are working. Nothing much to do like on Zodiac with spells and other stuff. Just one simple attack.

Posted by David K?

A players body has 79 sprites,
and I'm sure there are more than 100 ganis for them.

It´s the same way you could do with pets. Like a hug could be the same as a grab gani (like in most cases). And yes there are over 100 ganis because of the different weapons and so on NOT using the same template (which wouldn´t happen with pets). Or like I said above: just have one basic attack, nothing too fancy with different spells, weapons, armors, ... .

Posted by David K?

I intentionally made my last post going along side you
and not against you because I didn't think you realized what you were saying.

Love you too


Oh and I still have no clue why you calculated over 26m sprites. If you mean all images together... believe me there are way more heads, bodies and so on. Doesn´t mean it would be for only one action, pet, or whatever you have been refering that to.  

Posted by callimuc

It´s the graphics fault than, not the ganis one. Just like with the bodys. You can create bodies and they will just fu** up in the walk gani or you can make bodies properly and have them not fu** up.

No need to curse, I try to keep all the graphics centered and let the ganis handle the slight movement. This could be personal preference... I did this for my cow so I could multiply by 16 to get to the next sprite.
(Before I created the gani for the cow, basically made it walk, eat, and idle without ganis.)

Posted by callimuc

Just realized it proberly with the 4 different kind of pets. Well I gues that this would be one of the smallest problems since there could be checks withing the (custom?)-uploads. Also 32 ganis is not that much if you look at the ammount of ganis you need for different body actions (mostly weapons)

32 ganis is not much no, but is tedious and might take 1-3 days to do.
Essentially you finish one set, and copy them doing slight edits to get 8.
Copy those 8 four times and do slight edits for the pet types.
The point is it is just more work they would have to do.

Posted by callimuc

Could be done the same way as the bodies are working. Nothing much to do like on Zodiac with spells and other stuff. Just one simple attack.

That is true, but very uninteresting. :[

Technically it only needs 1-2 ganis, melee and ranged.
The graphics and scripting would have to do the rest.
(depending on the height and width of the pet
or where the shot comes from)

Posted by callimuc

It´s the same way you could do with pets. Like a hug could be the same as a grab gani (like in most cases). And yes there are over 100 ganis because of the different weapons and so on NOT using the same template (which wouldn´t happen with pets). Or like I said above: just have one basic attack, nothing too fancy with different spells, weapons, armors, ... .

You forget the fun type things, like dancing, or random odd movements..
Pet could have a seizure lmao... My pet system will have other things outside its template though.

Posted by callimuc

Oh and I still have no clue why you calculated over 26m sprites. If you mean all images together... believe me there are way more heads, bodies and so on. Doesn´t mean it would be for only one action, pet, or whatever you have been refering that to.

Posted by Graalol

Wouldn't it be awesome if you could just download a program,make a pet from scratch,

Posted by Graalol

Depending on its likes/dislikes depends on whose pet you could breed it with. breeding it would allow you to have another pet but you cannot use your female pet for 2+ hours. pets can only mate once per day though and other pets are not active until their made.

I thought he meant it could only mate every two hours.
So let me redo that... Using the new list.

1 sprite for idle
2 sprites for walk
2 sprites for sleep
2 sprites for drinking/eating
2 sprites for bathing
3 sprites for breeding
1 sprite for yawning
2 sprites for gralat getting

Eight actions per pet template. Fifteen sprites per pet.
Fifteen sprites * four directions = 60 sprites per pet created.

Assuming 100 people decided to create their pets 100 pets could theoretically mate once per day. (No longer every two hours)

365 days in a year * 100 people = 36,500 pets.
Those 36,500 pets would need 60 sprites each.
Staff would have to make 2,190,000 sprites for all of different breeds together (36,500 breeds). Assuming the creators makes the original sprites.

Does that slightly clear it up, as to how I got the number?
I'm sure more than 100 people would make a pet though...
and I'm sure not all of the pet owners would breed every day.

Theoretically, if only 100 people bred the theoretical amount of times they could in a year, that is the amount of sprites that would be needed to be made.



Edited:
When I read posts, I actually read and try to analyze it, the first time I just skipped everything. So I thought about how much work would need to be done for this, and the work needed... it just isn't plausible.

Not to put people down, but to teach them, or help them, to give them the information needed before continuing if they should actually continue.

For instance, his idea just needs to be changed.
Personality and breeding could be taken off, then the pet system would be far easier, but probably wouldn't look good since amateur or novice people are creating the pets.  

Posted by David K?

32 ganis is not much no, but is tedious and might take 1-3 days to do.
Essentially you finish one set, and copy them doing slight edits to get 8.
Copy those 8 four times and do slight edits for the pet types.
The point is it is just more work they would have to do.

I made about 10 ganis in ~30 mins including the bare bone scripting and getting distracted by RC.

Posted by David K?

You forget the fun type things, like dancing, or random odd movements..

Would just need a few ganis which could get added during the time which wouldnt affect the game play with the pets

Posted by David K?

Eight actions per pet template. Fifteen sprites per pet.
Fifteen sprites * four directions = 60 sprites per pet created.

Assuming 100 people decided to create their pets 100 pets could theoretically mate once per day. (No longer every two hours)

365 days in a year * 100 people = 36,500 pets.
Those 36,500 pets would need 60 sprites each.
Staff would have to make 2,190,000 sprites for all of different breeds together (36,500 breeds). Assuming the creators makes the original sprites.

Does that slightly clear it up, as to how I got the number?
I'm sure more than 100 people would make a pet though...
and I'm sure not all of the pet owners would breed every day.

Theoretically, if only 100 people bred the theoretical amount of times they could in a year, that is the amount of sprites that would be needed to be made.

It could be created by the players. 90% of it would be recolored or whatever and about 10% maybe even self made. Also for good graphic artists such things arent such a big problem I gues. Mostly you can copy the body and just change the feed/arms or whatever.

We also have to take care that we are using this on an iServer which won´t allow all easy ways like you would do on the PC (due to lag). On the PC my pet system would have probably been done in about 1-2 days if I really would have been working hard.  

Posted by callimuc

I made about 10 ganis in ~30 mins including the bare bone scripting and getting distracted by RC.

Doesn't really tell me anything about the ganis and why they didn't take so long.. I get distracted by many other things due to ADHD, but it isn't necessary to get into what you were making. We will just assume they can make all 60 in ~180 minutes, it doesn't matter too much. It is still ~180 minutes they could use on doing something that will be used or will work well.

Posted by callimuc

Would just need a few ganis which could get added during the time which wouldnt affect the game play with the pets

Idle and walk? Sure.

Posted by callimuc

It could be created by the players. 90% of it would be recolored or whatever and about 10% maybe even self made. Also for good graphic artists such things arent such a big problem I gues. Mostly you can copy the body and just change the feed/arms or whatever.

I believe you are talking about what could happen, not about what was suggested. He did not say either staff or players would create the bred creatures, which leads me to believe it is pushed onto staff.

I also assumed that the pets would look better than only recoloring, since the pets themselves were custom created.
For instance, one might draw spikes, another might be skin and bones. Which one would you recolor? I was thinking both spikes and skin and bones...

I'm letting him know how deeply thought out and how much work this idea would take, not try to help make it happen. If you'd like to talk about what 'could' happen, instead of how he said it should happen, you should talk to him about it. o.O

Posted by callimuc

We also have to take care that we are using this on an iServer which won´t allow all easy ways like you would do on the PC (due to lag). On the PC my pet system would have probably been done in about 1-2 days if I really would have been working hard.

Whereas that last statement may have no
relevance to him whatsoever, I'm interested.
Why would an iServer be different?
I have no experience developing for an iServer.

My system is going to use chat commands and clicking.
(When it is finished)
Why is iServers different. o.o


For the most part, tell him what is easy to do,
and tell him how it can be done easily.
Explain why iClassic should do it.

I'm only stating how much work I see in it,
and why I believe they shouldn't do it. lol

Going back to my 12 page essay.
Need to finish it so I cannot debate
how easy, hard, simple, quick, or
complex the system might be...

My opinion was given, I think
the idea needs to be improved. I
even justified my self as to why.  

TOO MUCH TEXT EVEN FOR ME!  

Posted by David K?

Whereas that last statement may have no
relevance to him whatsoever, I'm interested.
Why would an iServer be different?
I have no experience developing for an iServer.

My system is going to use chat commands and clicking.
(When it is finished)
Why is iServers different. o.o

iClient's do lag way faster than computers (as example: using too many timeouts). Also with a higher playercount the server would lag faster which means we can not use too many easy done gani scripts for the pets (like zodiac probably does) or serverside loops.

Posted by Higbey

TOO MUCH TEXT EVEN FOR ME!

I just did read that because it did distract me from learning maths <.< sick of maths  

Posted by David K?

I must admit I didn't actually read your post.

Basically what you are asking is anyone can upload a pet.
There would have to be a system to use personality.
There would have to be a system for breeding.
There would have to be a system for affection.
There would have to be a system for actions and mood.

Every-time a pet breeds a new pet would have to be graphically created...
Basically, hypothetically, every two hours, per person, a new pet should be graphically created because that is when they can theoretically be bred.

So lets say 100/1000 people have a pet, in a day 12 new pets per 100 people would have to be created. That is 1200 pets a day. (Since a player creates his own pet, the possibilities of breeds are endless.)

That is, for 100 people, 438,000 pets per year.
Each pet having lets see.. By the minimum.
1 sprite for idle
2 sprites for walk
2 sprites for sleep (getting up / down and sleeping)
2 sprites for drinking (head in the middle, then down)
2 sprites for bathing (transition between two for bathing?)
3 sprites for breeding (woohoo is complicated)
1 sprite for yawning
2 sprites for gralat getting (open mouth slightly, open mouth fully and fire)

That is 15 sprites, which all need four directions. 60 sprites per pet so far...
A sprite is an image.

I'm honestly not so sure, assuming only 100 people will have pets per year, that a graphics team member would want to create 26,280,000 sprites per year.

And I would feel like the systems needed for it would be a waste of time also.. But more possible then the original creating a pet and breeding idea.

However, I'm pretty sure more than 100 people will want a pet...

I hope these statistics give you an idea why this pet system thought should not be created...
I may think a pet system would be an amazing idea,
but I also know what is possible and isn't. :x

no its not like that. each player has to make the sprites for their pet on their own. they may also have 1 pet with/following them at a time. during the child phase the pet is just with its mother looking like a white rectangular shape and wont move until made by the player. so i don't think people would go through the trouble of making one a day. Forgot to mention all that  

Posted by Higbey

What your talking about would be a whole new entire game. Stefan won't even make the level editor or graalshop gani maker for Mac, I doubt he would go through the trouble of making a whole entire new program for pet making. As great this idea is, it would be a different game.

Yes true true. It a good idea but not worth it  

Posted by Graalol

no its not like that. each player has to make the sprites for their pet on their own. they may also have 1 pet with/following them at a time. during the child phase the pet is just with its mother looking like a white rectangular shape and wont move until made by the player. so i don't think people would go through the trouble of making one a day. Forgot to mention all that

I don't understand what your statement is referring to at all.

You still have not mentioned anything about breeding which you did in the first post... I assumed breeding would mean a new pet look.
Will there not be any breeding? If so the system would be MUCH easier.

But still not worth it for iClassic visually..
Ganis would be the easiest, pets they wouldn't have to do (but probably look pretty bad.)
And the system would take a good amount of time.  

Why not just have the pets like in iClassic?