there really is no definite answer to whether or not a lag cap should be in place. lemme apply some of my college knowledge of ethical theories.

a popular one would be utilitarianism which maximizes the benefit for the largest number of people. if we followed this and set, say, a 450ms lag cap to sparring ONLY (which is what this thread is about), then people dont have to deal with this insane "VPN" stuff which i never really bothered to understand. also, it doesnt really matter what region you are from if the lag cap is at 450ms, no player from any area has ever said they average above even 300ms. so back to the theory, many players would be happy with this kind of lag cap in place, and the only players who would actually get hurt are those players who are abusing their lag.

however, this theory gets some competition in the "ethics of care." this says basically to protect those who are close to you. you can see this used in the argument from the alumni side (points out that only fulgore thallen and shannon are really saying "lagging isnt cheating"). some players are close friends to those who are abusing their lag to obtain easier wins, so of course these people would be against the idea of a lag cap in spar, no matter how logical it is.

i would apply some more theories but i am getting distracted and talking about my plans for christmas presents so ill just end it there. youre welcome for the free education. there will probably never be a lag cap though, as certain corrupt people get really pissy about it since it removes their advantage.  

I'd like to point out there are others who agree that lagging isn't cheating.

And there are people who have lag that can often spike higher than that(450), typically when the player count is high.

Additionally, living in a region that doesn't connect as fast doesn't qualify as abuse, so I don't understand that. It's as if they shouldn't be allowed to play since they live in x or y region.

On a side note, you're right I need to start plans for Christmas as well so I'll leave it at those 3 points for now I guess, don't hesitate to point out anything I missed.  

Posted by Comyt

however, this theory gets some competition in the "ethics of care." this says basically to protect those who are close to you. you can see this used in the argument from the alumni side (points out that only fulgore thallen and shannon are really saying "lagging isnt cheating"). some players are close friends to those who are abusing their lag to obtain easier wins, so of course these people would be against the idea of a lag cap in spar, no matter how logical it is.

Respectfully, you are making assumptions about other people's motives and aspirations. Never did I say I was against the idea of a lag cap, but you sure would think so because you've proven that you value the Alumni guild tag more than the person wearing it. Which, quite honestly, is pretty shallow.

If there were enough reason to implement a latency cap upon spar queue entry, it would probably need to be introduced at a larger latency before lowering it if necessary. 500ms is somewhat of a "standard" latency max in certain situations in certain games from my experience. I don't know the average latency of all Graalians, or if that average is documented anywhere staff can reach. I do know that a lag cap on a spar queue is something that certainly is possible if the community as a whole proves that it is necessary and brings the situation up with staff. That would probably be your best option.

But again, personally, it does not bother me one bit. I just work through it.  

• lagging isn't cheating and it will always happen
• there are less people using VPNs than you can count on one hand, so I wouldn't consider it a substantial enough issue
• same story for speed hackers: not a very significant issue lately, so it isn't a huge problem
• using alternate accounts is legal and it's not even problematic due to the way the leaderboard functions
• preventing people with over a ping over 90 is a terrible idea, especially when you consider that the entire server has a ping over 90 when 2900+ are online (go to the arena and try sparring tomorrow at 4 PM EST when 3400+ are online if you don't believe me)

didn't read this thread, but I'm sure there's no decent argument to be made based on these simple facts
thread solved

here's what is actually wrong with sparring:

• it's impossible to experience smooth spars when 2900+ are online
• the spar community is filled with a bunch of babies and ragers
• sparring isn't being incentivized and people are getting bored of it and sparring less because it's been around for 5 years (more for many), there's less to achieve individually, etc. (example: take away hats from towers and see how the tower community shrinks by at least half)

so, if the server could be improved to handle the amount of players and if admins could pitch in a little to help encourage players to go back to spars (or PKing, or BKing, or any activity really), that'd help

as far as the community goes, that can't be changed and it's the players' faults (not the admins) for being ignorant, pessimistic, whiney, hateful, angry, etc.
I suspect a majority of the negativity is a direct result of getting beaten in spars for years and having to constantly rely on excuses - I can understand your angst, but you're still the only ones to blame, sorry

reminds me of the "elo hell" excuse in League of Legends: "I'm actually a really good player, but my teammates always make me lose and I can never climb" - so explain why there are people who can create new accounts and go from unranked to top 10
"I'm really good at sparring, but laggers and cheaters always make me lose" - so explain why there are sparrers like Dante, Kevin, Junior, Shiden, etc. (good sparrers who you basically never see making excuses)  

Posted by Thallen

• lagging isn't cheating and it will always happen
• there are less people using VPNs than you can count on one hand, so I wouldn't consider it a substantial enough issue
• same story for speed hackers: not a very significant issue lately, so it isn't a huge problem
• using alternate accounts is legal and it's not even problematic due to the way the leaderboard functions
• preventing people with over a ping over 90 is a terrible idea, especially when you consider that the entire server has a ping over 90 when 2900+ are online (go to the arena and try sparring tomorrow at 4 PM EST when 3400+ are online if you don't believe me)

didn't read this thread, but I'm sure there's no decent argument to be made based on these simple facts
thread solved

here's what is actually wrong with sparring:

• it's impossible to experience smooth spars when 2900+ are online
• the spar community is filled with a bunch of babies and ragers
• sparring isn't being incentivized and people are getting bored of it and sparring less because it's been around for 5 years (more for many), there's less to achieve individually, etc. (example: take away hats from towers and see how the tower community shrinks by at least half)

so, if the server could be improved to handle the amount of players and if admins could pitch in a little to help encourage players to go back to spars (or PKing, or BKing, or any activity really), that'd help

as far as the community goes, that can't be changed and it's the players' faults (not the admins) for being ignorant, pessimistic, whiney, hateful, angry, etc.
I suspect a majority of the negativity is a direct result of getting beaten in spars for years and having to constantly rely on excuses - I can understand your angst, but you're still the only ones to blame, sorry

reminds me of the "elo hell" excuse in League of Legends: "I'm actually a really good player, but my teammates always make me lose and I can never climb" - so explain why there are people who can create new accounts and go from unranked to top 10
"I'm really good at sparring, but laggers and cheaters always make me lose" - so explain why there are sparrers like Dante, Kevin, Junior, Shiden, etc. (good sparrers who you basically never see making excuses)

So you're saying a ping of 90 will make the sparring experience not smooth? lmao? you can't even count to ten on every ninety millisecond  

Posted by Ash Ketchum

So you're saying a ping of 90 will make the sparring experience not smooth? lmao? you can't even count to ten on every ninety millisecond

A ping cap of 90 will make the sparring experience limited to about 50 people, none of which maintain under 90 ping when 3k players are online.  

Wow... hot on this thread, eh fellas?

What if there was some way of artificially equalizing the lag instead of limiting the people who could or couldn't participate?

What if there were 'leagues' of spar that allowed people from x and y areas (or timezones, hint hint) to participate?

There's easy answers out there, if you stop bickering.  

Posted by Fulgore

A ping cap of 90 will make the sparring experience limited to about 50 people, none of which maintain under 90 ping when 3k players are online.

yes
I ping a consistent 60 when ~2000 people are online (I live alone and have my own dedicated internet connection, and I'm connected by ethernet, so nothing is going on in the background to interfere with my latency)

right now:

"showlag" #1:

"showlag" #2, 10 seconds later:

"showlag" #3, 10 seconds later:


this happens to everyone, and if anyone tries to tell me that they get an extremely low ping when 3600 are online then make a video of it (don't waste your time, it won't happen)
every single person who is online right now is delaying and skipping/warping around to some extent

even with a stable server, a ping cap is a bad idea
with this server, it's probably the worst idea ever

Posted by 4-Lom

What if there were 'leagues' of spar that allowed people from x and y areas (or timezones, hint hint) to participate?

There's easy answers out there, if you stop bickering.

well, just because a solution exists doesn't mean that it's a good one
it's as if to say "you can never die in a car accident if you just never use a car" - sounds wonderful but isn't reasonable

if you're suggesting that there be spars where, for example, only players from the US are allowed to spar, then that'd probably advantage me more than anyone on this game, but I'm not selfish enough to try and pretend as if that'd be progressive

it wouldn't be, because it'd be completely unfair to people who are in Germany, France, Japan, Italy, Sweden, and wherever else - they'd rarely be given the opportunity to spar (because of how small their community is), and even when they were it'd be 2 players who delay sparring each other - so you tell me what was really achieved there

the real solution is getting better at sparring, understanding how lag works, and then dealing with it
I'm not even saying you are suggesting a bad idea by proposing that, and it's good that you're at least suggesting things, but I promise to you that there is a game-breaking problem with any solution other than the one I stated above  

Deal with laggers& delayers

Learn techniques to beat them

crying wont help  

Posted by 4-Lom

What if there were 'leagues' of spar that allowed people from x and y areas (or timezones, hint hint) to participate?

There's easy answers out there, if you stop bickering.

First, they would have to add your ms somewhere so it's constantly visible or your profile. Second, they would have to have 3 device rooms with each having a different ms range. Room one 0-350,
Room two 351-700, and room three 700+(don't want to keep mood and Sarah from sparring). Like the idea, but I would rather see ash's idea of complaining to ownership about adding another hosting server on the other side of the world.

Posted by Thallen

well, just because a solution exists doesn't mean that it's a good one
it's as if to say "you can never die in a car accident if you just never use a car" - sounds wonderful but isn't reasonable

What if the person is Amish?




The thing is that people can die in a car accident without ever using a car.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/...home-1.2071678  

OK lmao thallen just made an essay on '90 ms cap = bad'
Everyone agreed on 450ms???
It looks like Thallen doesn't have stable internet connection too lmao. *Blames server count*  

Posted by Ash Ketchum

OK lmao thallen just made an essay on '90 ms cap = bad'
Everyone agreed on 450ms???
It looks like Thallen doesn't have stable internet connection too lmao. *Blames server count*

You are seriously impaired.  

Posted by Fulgore

You are seriously impaired.

Stop defending your **** leader with empty insults that have nothing to back it up with  

Posted by Ash Ketchum

Stop defending your **** leader with empty insults that have nothing to back it up with

Here's proof:

You failed to understand what people are saying even after the topic has been spoken twice about. Additionally, you have no comprehension of how latency works, and proceed to lie about your own, claiming that whoever lags when the server is packed has unstable internet.

Just a couple examples from one page of one thread I've seen you on.  

Posted by Fulgore

Here's proof:

You failed to understand what people are saying even after the topic has been spoken twice about. Additionally, you have no comprehension of how latency works, and proceed to lie about your own, claiming that whoever lags when the server is packed has unstable internet.

Just a couple examples from one page of one thread I've seen you on.

Um? The guy is complaining that its the servers fault for not having a stable latency. Having a stable internet would mean that his latency wouldn't increase and decrease so rapidly like that.

LETS ALL BLAME THE SERVER! BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY OUR CHEAP INTERNET ISN'T AT FAULT! smh