alright i know ive come on a little hard in the past few days, so i feel like o owe a series of apologies, mostly to people on this thread, but some to people on a thread which nyn just deleted.

first, and foremost, azrael.
i came into the topic with little knowledge. and i still believe that classic pc is better than classic iphone because i love quests. but anyway, yeah i definitly should have looked around before i posted. but iclassic is definitly getting better. when i saw the free shovel which let me use snowballs i was in shock and awe. SHOCK AND AWE! this completly change the way to pk! this added a while new aspect to the game! for free! im just gonna be sad when all the snow goes away and i cant use them anymore. can we have mud balls XD? and the quests you make are perfect for the large player count, and community. classic pc probably wont have 1000 players all trying to do a quest at one time and youve handled it very well. ever since youve first started youve been one of my most respected admins. lol i remember your first day you were dragging people up cliffs and stuff. and you once dragged me over to sample some of your work, since people used to LAT in game. where the grotto now i i believe stating whoever LATed it was an idiot, which i had no idea what i meant at the time. and the fact you do so much work for the game, and still connect with the community is great. im sorry for speaking so rashly. you obviously have much more experience in this area than i do.

to Thor:
yeah, sorry i may have unknowingly stated that iclassic is all your stuff. i guess i should have worded it differently lol. sorry for that, as i kind of implied that you were the one and only person responsible to classic pc, and putting words in your mouth. ill be visiting your server very soon. cant wait to see what new quests you have in store for me. everyone should go check out this mans server his quests are soooo much fun. and some of the items hes made, like beer and the high five, people would pay tens of thousands of gralats for in iclassic lol.

to yephenpeace if he reads this:
im sorry for coming on so strong about my idea in the "thats just stupid" post. in fact i should be apologizing to everyone, since well i gave everyone a lot of attitude in that post. sorry, i guess you guys should know this, and i understand if all o you unfriend me and completely cut me out after hearing this but, im from new jersey. we fight a lot here. yell, come on very strong, get spray tans, fist pump, GTL, then fight some more. i once made a kid cry since he was trying to make the argument that obama was from kenya and i kept yelling at him for being racist...its something i need to work on lol. ill try to be more respectful to everyone after this.

to NYN:
again, came on a little strong. and i should have presented it in a more respectful manner. and i did quit for a year in case you didnt notice. i came back again since i wanted to see old friends, and see the progress thats been made on the game. one of the things that i respected about stefan in he past was that he worked so hard to upload our content, hiring admin after admin to do it. and i can understand it gets overwhelming. and i still think my idea stands, and is a good one since it reward people who contribute, while still limiting uploads, however i did come on too strong. i should have been more respectful, and ill work on it in the future. however yours is definitely the hardest to make, since im still kinda mad at you for taking personal shots at me, and saying im addicted to a game that you probably have 3-4x the hours on than i do. then after that immediately deleting the thread. its funny, since i read your "how to become an admin" post or whatever it was, and you stated multiple times that maturity was important. yet you run around here trolling, and deleting threads, and so forth. ive found many of your posts disrespectful, and since im apologizing for the bad things ive said, i think itd be fair if you did the same.  

Posted by DarkKnight

i created this thread matt :p

Ah, sorry, didn't notice  

Posted by NYN

Sorry nyn  

Posted by Thor

Remember that time where you posted on the official forums, making an extraordinary claim that I had been banning players purely for the reason that they were iPhone players, then when I asked you to clarify all you could muster in response was "well someone told me you did"?

Yeah I saw a screenshot of that. I also recall letting it go when I found out that person was being a nuisance.

Posted by Thor

It's somewhat pointless to make playercount comparisons between a platform which:

Can be played for free to a larger extent, with additional charges being much cheaper.
Essentially has its advertisement handled for it by Apple.
Has much less competition in terms of other games on the platform.
Has a purchase method more open to young people.


And a platform which:

Can be played for free to a much lesser extent, where the price of a full subscription is excessive.
Has received no advertisement, even one time where Graal was listed on a top games website, Graal was removed from the list after Unixmad bizarrely threatened legal action against the site.
Is a much smaller fish among the relevant market.
Has been terribly mismanaged and neglected for a very long time.
Has a purchasing method which is more exclusive to adults.

I entirely agree with this point. There's really no comparison to make between these two platforms due to the large differences. PC Graal has been mismanaged and forgotten on a large scale. The payment methods are kind of confusing at a brief glance. To top it off, payment is rather expensive. The best option Graal offered was the one-time payment for Classic accounts - which I bought a number of. I would venture to think that's the most money they made off of PC Graal.

Posted by Thor

I'm not entirely sure what it is you're insinuating here, but I have never claimed to be behind the original development of iClassic if that's what you're suggesting.
However it's not entirely true that I had nothing to do with it, I was a developer on Classic prior to becoming Manager, and there have certainly been uses of things that were in part my work which were made beyond the initial 2007 level set, presumably obtained within a 2008 backup.
But this is absolutely fine, I have never claimed that my work has been stolen, and again this irks me when people who claim to know me well suggest such a thing, and it's not a great deal of things anyway. I am more concerned with how certain things have been made to look alien from Classic.

Those weren't aimed towards you or to insinuate anything. I wasn't trying to say you were claiming to be anything. The community here generally have a hard time designating who did what or played/play what role. I was stating that the majority of the stuff on iClassic, which was rather forced down my throat, was from a large array of people. In the grand scheme of things, nothing on the server is from anyone specific. Classic is a Hodge-podge of levels with many different developers. Some current players like to tell me that I've done such a good job with Level X or Y, when we just announced that Developer A did this, not myself.

Posted by Thor

Again a complete fabrication, I have never claimed this and I agree it could not be further from the truth.

You got pissed at me once for hopping onto Classic PC when I had a question about what a general file-name was. I can't even remember what it was, but it wasn't Classic-specific.

Posted by Thor

Nobody in their right mind should be expecting you to release exact copies of older Classic content, we're not even doing that with PC Classic.
You're also right in that mass converting is an extremely tedious process, I know first hand how a lot of the levels iPhone inherited are badly scripted, happens to be one of the reasons we wiped the server.

Thank you. It is largely a pain in the butt. Still, some of the levels currently used are badly scripted. We just don't have a dedicated NAT team to assist in switching over everything. I admit I am not awesome at scripting. I can get by and can do some basic stuff (working with Classes, some level scripting, etc.). But all in all, I can't handle bigger projects like re-writing systems. This is actually one of the biggest reasons that we're backed up with projects. We have a lot sitting around 95% completion, but are just waiting to get a number of things re-scripted.

Posted by Thor

Call it whatever you like, it exists on newer servers, it was very rare on Classic until post NPC-Server. While it would be wrong to say change is bad or that improvements shouldn't be explored, this style isn't really contributing any significant improvement, and there's nothing wrong with using the simpler tiling style.

It's just my style of tiling. If I find a good Classic-style LAT, I would have no problems hiring them. We had one - SwedishKing or something along that manner. He made a number of classic-style levels, but ended up going largely inactive due to things going on IRL for him. Can't blame him, but I would love to find a Classic-style LAT that is dedicated, focused, and doesn't have his or her own personal agenda.

Posted by Thor

The word hybrid generally implies that different elements have been combined to create something better or more efficient.
But this is far from the case, it's more a wild and random collection of entirely different things than a strategic combination.
Hybrid or not, it's still for the most part purporting to be the same thing when it is clearly a very different thing.

I'm not saying it's any better or worse than any other Classic before it. In fact, I will always be in favor of the classic that I, as a baby little noob, started on. The large variety and development of a story, questing galore, etc., was absolutely amazing. I really feel like iClassic pales in comparison to Tyhm's. I call iClassic a hybrid due to the different Classic Back-ups I had to use to piece together what we have. I have 2 different years myself, Xor has another 3, and Rufus has some that he's contributed as well.

Posted by Thor

There aren't many people who can say they've spent 2.5 years without pause redeveloping a hidden server from the ground up. If my goal is to obtain attention or recognition there are many easier and less time consuming things I could do instead. I don't suppose you're aware Stefan has on multiple occasions offered me money/a free iDevice/a staff position to contribute work to iPhone?
It does not make sense to do what I do, I do it because I want to recreate and advance a game I played as a kid, and in the case of Tyhm's Graal the Adventure I feel it was the best standard of a game Graal has ever reached.

No, there aren't many people. And I applaud you for that and give you much respect in that aspect. If Stefan has, then awesome. I wish we'd be offered something nice. I completely agree with you in your work. I would absolutely love to see Classic PC restored to how it was when we were younger folk. I can tell you you'd see my butt there every day.

Posted by Thor

Regarding Stefan's agendas, while I among plenty of others can be very critical of him at times, I have on numerous occasions on the forums defended the fact that he is hard working and just has a hell of a lot of different things on his plate, leaving some things understandably to be a very low priority.
I would also like to re-iterate that Graal has always been a player made game, Stefan or no Stefan it is and will always be ultimately up to the community to build and maintain the game, which is again something I have posted in his defense. He even once sent me a forum PM personally thanking me for saying such a thing, funnily enough within a thread discussing the possibility of PC Graal ever mimicking iPhone's success.

I agree with you here. Graal is player made and maintained. I am harsh on his agenda's as well, but I defend him as well when necessary. I do get upset when we're working on a big project, then directions change and we start something else on a whim, never finishing the first project. We can't find NATs as it is, let alone one that wants to decode what another NAT has started and continue along that path. Due to this, it gets very frustrating when we have people complain about no updates.

Posted by Thor

I don't resent your opinion on this, you're quite right in that no server has managed to completely resurrect itself, and of course the last server to break through was Zodiac over half a decade ago. I've never been under any illusions as to just how vast the amount required to accomplish this is.

I will say however that the majority of the -hard- work is done, once we've released our Castle Dungeon (and this is a huge project containing lots of different neat resources, which again Stefan asked us about even though we haven't even released it yet), we'll be taking the focus off of developing quests and onto community based content, which is much more straight forward.

Believe me, I would absolutely love to see you bring Classic back. However, being around here so long there has only been one case where a server broke out of the hidden list. I do wish you the best of luck with your projects though and I really hope that it brings Classic PC up and out. Like I said prior, I would be visiting daily. I would also offer my assistance but I'm waist high in work here.

Posted by Thor

I realize you guys don't have the luxury of 2 and a half years to make a server in which you feel is complete. You've had the difficult circumstance of having to maintain over a thousand players, without a 100% devotional coder, on a much more CPU limited platform, and of course you're volunteers.

This. iClassic is nowhere near complete. I can't begin to explain how horrid I feel the server is. When I was offered this position, I jumped all over it because I loved Classic. I wanted to bring that back. However, that's not what the plan was. It's incredibly hard to work on quests - or even start - when I have to appease certain people by releasing specific things within a time limit. It's hard to focus on development with such a large player counter, no dedicated NAT team, and running entirely on volunteer staff. I'm not saying our staff is bad, but it's free work. People don't always have time for work they don't get paid for. Also, I am in no way dissing our NAT crew. They are some of the best; Twinny, fp4, Stefan, Skyld. However, I know that all of them have other things going on - other servers that are primary focus, other games in Stefan's case, or just things going on in real life that take away development focus and time.

Posted by Thor

I would like to clarify that I do not wish you or any of the general staff members (the people that really run the game) any offense.

Regarding the jokes on PC Classic, they're not crude, but more down to ones own interpretation... it's harmless fun, lot of people have found it entertaining. On the other hand some players actually take Bomber's Shop seriously which is something of a backfiring, but funny nonetheless.

None taken. As well, I do not wish you or any of your staff any offense either. I understand your point of view. The jokes on PC Classic I don't mind much in all honesty. I find it funny. I laughed. Sometimes it gets annoying with so many people "hating", but I generally just ignore those people.  

Lol!  

Posted by Maikeru

Um.. You did read that i apologized and im sorry for what i said... Right? or did you ignore that entire post you just quoted now?

naaah i read it i just got bored and wanted to mess with you ^.^  

Posted by Maikeru

The sound made me laugh  

Posted by Azrael

It's just my style of tiling. If I find a good Classic-style LAT, I would have no problems hiring them. We had one - SwedishKing or something along that manner. He made a number of classic-style levels, but ended up going largely inactive due to things going on IRL for him. Can't blame him, but I would love to find a Classic-style LAT that is dedicated, focused, and doesn't have his or her own personal agenda.

Yeah, I don't think you know what the Classic-style is. A classic level isn't detailed for the sake of being detailed. As a matter of fact, it is mostly minimal and designed more for function than "flare". Naturally a good level needs some aesthetic value, but cheap details and obstrusive tiles are signs of bad level design.

For instance, you took the shop level I had made (purposely styled as it is) and turned it into an amateur grade UN fest. My level was clean and styled so that the players could move around freely. You took that clean, relatively Classic design and tossed it in favor of some random lake with a blocking center coupled with random (and rather ugly) stone paths.  

Posted by Crono

Yeah, I don't think you know what the Classic-style is. A classic level isn't detailed for the sake of being detailed. As a matter of fact, it is mostly minimal and designed more for function than "flare". Naturally a good level needs some aesthetic value, but cheap details and obstrusive tiles are signs of bad level design.

For instance, you took the shop level I had made (purposely styled as it is) and turned it into an amateur grade UN fest. My level was clean and styled so that the players could move around freely. You took that clean, relatively Classic design and tossed it in favor of some random lake with a blocking center coupled with random (and rather ugly) stone paths.

And they didn't even crop/shape the tree tops correctly. For shame If there's one thing I don't like that a lot of LATs amateurishly do, it's stack tree trops on top of each other like that without cropping them correctly. It looks horrible.  

Posted by Azrael

Post

Sounds reasonable, I won't argue with any of that.

I can understand why it would be easy to berate me under the assumption that those beliefs were true, but these are complete myths likely perpetrated via online Chinese whispers or spread misinterpretation.  

Crono, I'd just like to say how I admire your ability to be a total minimalist when it comes to designing a level, but yet make it look so good.
I've been trying to recreate that sort of style for ages, but could never do it.  

huh...i guess ive been ranting and raving all these years about little updates with little knowledge of what they entailed. i had no idea azrael had to run around a reskript everything...i guess i just had an epiphany...theres been tons of stuff in the work, but its been hard to get out whether it be quests, new towns, or other things that players really want. this has all been hard since they have to reskript everything. so they give us all these boring hat updates and such to keep us busy in the mean time, and make stefan money of course too. i always took them restocking graal shops with more items as lazyness, and stefan wanting to pump out more to get more cash but now i see its because of how difficult it is. i wish i could just run in there with a working knowledge of GS2 and fix everything myself. however i feel like that would take years according to the talks thor and i used to have. plus i dont have a graal gold account so itd still be kinda pointless.  

Posted by Godzilla

Huh...I guess I've been ranting and raving all these years about little updates with little knowledge of what they entailed. I had no idea Azrael had to run around a re-script everything...I guess I just had an epiphany...there's been tons of stuff in the work, but its been hard to get out whether it be quests, new towns, or other things that players really want. this has all been hard since they have to re-script everything. so they give us all these boring hat updates and such to keep us busy in the mean time, and make Stefan money of course too. I always took them restocking Graal shops with more items as laziness, and Stefan wanting to pump out more to get more cash but now i see its because of how difficult it is. I wish I could just run in there with a working knowledge of GS2 and fix everything myself. however i feel like that would take years according to the talks Thor and i used to have. plus I don't have a Graal gold account so it'd still be kinda pointless.

You don't need a gold account to get picked up. It will take a while to learn GS2, but if you focus and put your mind to it it's not terribly hard. It's just like any other programming language.  

GS2 is like a foreign language. it can come incredibly easily to some, others not so much. It just depends on on how determined you are. Ask Twinny for help, he is the scripting ninja.  

Posted by Azrael

You don't need a gold account to get picked up. It will take a while to learn GS2, but if you focus and put your mind to it it's not terribly hard. It's just like any other programming language.

yeah, but you guys probably want pretty experienced scripters, so id like to be able to work on another server as a NAT before going to iclassic. especially since if some guys sends in an application asking for a NAT position with no prior server experience youll probably think hes full of ****. even if i do send you a ton of levels. and i dont know what im doing in graal these days. i dont even know if im gonna stay or not. plus development wise id rather not spend my time with graal script, since its limited to graal. im learning how to make a minecraft mod, and some java stuff along the way. i feel like this is more useful. but idk. if i can take a crashcourse, and learn to be at least decent in a month id definitely look into it.

nevermind. just found this: http://gs2.graalstudios.com/?page=basic
twinnys GS2 guide. it only has basics however. dont know how much use all this would be to you since you need levels decoded and stuff. looks pretty old, and looks like it wont be updated anytime soon too.

anyone got some good up to date GS2 tutorials, which show more than the basics?