Posted by Thallen

yet you keep coming back to the thread to do it, despite having been driven once before into a state of dementia where you followed me around the forums for a week until you got yourself banned LOL

I think you'll find I've never been banned on these forums and you've mixed me up with someone else.  

Posted by Clown

I think you'll find I've never been banned on these forums and you've mixed me up with someone else.

Poor guy has got you confused with Lagger.  

Posted by Sardon

As someone from a family of Italian immigrants I find immigration to be a great thing however when your community starts to blow things up and shoot people in countries that have given you a higher standard of living you shouldn't be surprised to see people like Thallen and Red who aren't too keen on accepting these individuals.

Islamophobia is not a phobia it is a rational fear of not getting bombed by radicals,sure not all are radical however we should still keep a watch on communities and arrest any we suspect of radicalization.
This is discriminatory however I prefer saving lives and saving these people from being corrupted by radicalism over political correctness.

Islamophobia is a phobia. It's an irrational fear of Muslims because they are Muslim. I too have a fear of being bombed, but that's not what Islamaphobia is. "Sure not all are radical however..." that paints the picture that most of them are when you word statements that way. Most drug smugglers are Mexican, but not all Mexicans are drug smugglers. You wouldn't say "Sure not all Mexicans are drug criminals however we should spy on every Mexican community in America to ensure they aren't drug criminals.". Profiling is different from discriminating. Profiling is what we should be doing, and profiling includes everything, even their race and religion, since that context is required for profiling. Discriminating is entirelt different and unconstitutional. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. That's 1/5th of the entire world that is Muslim.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-l...htmlstory.html
10 terrorist attacks on American soil since 9/11. There's an estimated 3.3 million Muslims in America - according to the Pew Research Center.

http://lawnewz.com/important/islamic...ill-get-built/
Unconstitutional religious discrimination against Muslims.

Do you think that labelling the entire Muslim population and imposing laws against the entire Muslim population will save them from being corrupted by radicalism? If anything, it will only steer them to radicalism.

Anyone relating misogyny with radical terrorism is using an agenda to label an entire group of people. Inequality among men & women is no where near equivelant to bombing innocents in Western countries in an attempt to take over the world. They are entirely two separate issues and you are actually devaluing the misogyny issue by continuing to group it with terrorism.  

Posted by PigParty

Anyone relating misogyny with radical terrorism is using an agenda to label an entire group of people. Inequality among men & women is no where near equivelant to bombing innocents in Western countries in an attempt to take over the world. They are entirely two separate issues and you are actually devaluing the misogyny issue by continuing to group it with terrorism.

2 different issues yes, but they stem from the same thing. The same factor that pushes radicals to bomb civilians is the one that causes the horrible living conditions for women/homosexuals in nations that are dominated by it.

The reason why this happens is because these countries aren't secular at all, you could nearly call them theocracies. Islam is tied so deeply within their government that you must worship it or be persecuted. Now, one could mistake this for an issue with the government if it weren't for the fact that organizations outside of official governments use Islam as their justification for terrorism. The common factor is clear.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting we as a nation discriminate against all Muslims on the offchance that one is a terrorist, but eyes need to be kept on these sorts of things to prevent the loss of innocent lives. If a little bit of freedom needs to be sacrificed to save an unknown number of lives in the future, I'm willing.  

Posted by Fulgore

And I don't think anyone is suggesting we as a nation discriminate against all Muslims on the offchance that one is a terrorist, but eyes need to be kept on these sorts of things to prevent the loss of innocent lives. If a little bit of freedom needs to be sacrificed to save an unknown number of lives in the future, I'm willing.

The ban Trump proposed originally only applied to Muslims of the 8 countries. Trump also proposed the idea many times that Mosques and Muslim communities in America need to be spied on/patrolled more by the police, even without suspicion of crime. The problem is many people are suggesting we discriminate against Muslims solely because they are Muslim.

Posted by Fulgore

2 different issues yes, but they stem from the same thing. The same factor that pushes radicals to bomb civilians is the one that causes the horrible living conditions for women/homosexuals in nations that are dominated by it.

I would have to somewhat disagree with this statement. Most terrorists don't do it for religion, even if that's the excuse they use to justify their actions. Most people who join ISIS and other terrorist groups have mental issues going on and don't want to abide by the laws and norms that any society imposes upon them, so they join the one group that allows them to live without societal rules. Religion has too easily become the excuse. I could watch CNN and see all these stories about possible corruption in government and commit an act against the U.S. government, but that doesn't mean that CNN is the cause of my act against the government. I could use CNN to justify what I know is unjustifiable, and I feel that's what is often done with Islam and terrorism. They need an excuse to justify the unjustifiable. I perfectly understand what you're saying, though. I just have a different interpretation of it all.

Posted by Fulgore

The reason why this happens is because these countries aren't secular at all, you could nearly call them theocracies. Islam is tied so deeply within their government that you must worship it or be persecuted. Now, one could mistake this for an issue with the government if it weren't for the fact that organizations outside of official governments use Islam as their justification for terrorism. The common factor is clear.

I agree that church and state should be separate otherwise there will be corruption. There's gender discrimination and then some in Israel. Other religions aren't immune, and I think that should be remembered so that only Islam isn't viewed as the reason for it. I mean, the Church of England is another good example of how any religion that is heavily involved in government leads to corruption and severe human rights issues. The thing is, though, that I'm a believer that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and all religions have always taught the same thing. People are the ones that corrupt the religion, and people are the problems; not the religions.  

Posted by Fulgore

If a little bit of freedom needs to be sacrificed to save an unknown number of lives in the future, I'm willing.

Because it's not your own freedom, right?  

Posted by CM

Because it's not your own freedom, right?

What do you think about his inability to go to Muslim countries and express freedoms like loving whoever he wants, following any religion he wants, wearing what he wants, saying what he wants, and so forth? How would you rank that in comparison to not being able to enter a sovereign nation due to being from a county with a high terrorist threat level? I'd say it really pales in comparison  

Posted by Thallen

What do you think about his inability to go to Muslim countries and express freedoms like loving whoever he wants, following any religion he wants, wearing what he wants, saying what he wants, and so forth? How would you rank that in comparison to not being able to enter a sovereign nation due to being from a county with a high terrorist threat level? I'd say it really pales in comparison

So fighting fire with fire? I honestly don't think the Muslim extremists actually care about being able to get into certain countries. Not only would immigration bans like that piss off even more Muslims who have possibly begun to think about turning towards extremism, but it would be the perfect tool for organizations like ISIS to recruit already mentally damaged people. "Your own country doesn't want you? We are here for you. We will make sure that you are loved and cared for." Those are already tactics that they use to recruit people from the inside. And like any other immigration bans there are ways to sneak across borders and bypass border control. ISIS already uses propaganda to recruit mentally damaged people who feel alone and like nobody loves them. A lot of people already face that type of persecution in Islamic countries, which is why ISIS is able to recruit so many people.

I agree that something has to be done, and while immigrations bans does look nice on paper, it's essentially just going to give those organizations a tool to recruit more people. And a large majority of Americans are already against these immigration bans, imagine the protests.  

Posted by Thallen

What do you think about his inability to go to Muslim countries and express freedoms like loving whoever he wants, following any religion he wants, wearing what he wants, saying what he wants, and so forth? How would you rank that in comparison to not being able to enter a sovereign nation due to being from a county with a high terrorist threat level? I'd say it really pales in comparison

Isn't that why America is so great? We're supposed to be better than those countries. Pretty funny that it's apparently okay to violate human rights just because other countries, that we pride ourselves as being better than, do it too.

America was founded on principals believed to be the natural rights of all peoples. That is the Constitution, and is what makes America what it is today, and not the countries you're criticizing for abusing their peoples' natural rights.

The Constitution is what prevents the police from targeting you without reason. The Constitution is what prevents people of different races from being treated unequally. The Constitution is what prevented the President from signing an executive order that discriminates by religion. The Constitution - like it or not - applies to every situation. There's no exemption just because it applies to an issue of which you're okay with violating those humans' rights.  

Posted by CM

So fighting fire with fire?

The entire basis of our disagreement is that you see it this way. It's not "fire with fire," what's the fire that we're using? You are trying to draw a comparison between limiting immigration to keep our country safe and the actual oppression, murder, and terrorism that happens in that area of the world. It's more like fighting fire with a water hose…

Posted by PigParty

Pretty funny that it's apparently okay to violate human rights just because other countries, that we pride ourselves as being better than, do it too.

That's not a human right… Being able to freely travel to other countries, unconditionally, isn't and never will be a human right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement

Freedom of movement, mobility rights, or the right to travel is a human rights concept encompassing the right of individuals to travel from place to place within the territory of a country, and to leave the country and return to it.

Posted by PigParty

America was founded on principals believed to be the natural rights of all peoples. That is the Constitution, and is what makes America what it is today, and not the countries you're criticizing for abusing their peoples' natural rights.

You seem to be under the impression that the Constitution is some global law. It applies to the US and our citizens only. I don't even know why you're bringing up the Constitution when we're talking about people from Muslim nations.  

/shuthefukcup  

extremist muslims carry out attacks, people lose their minds when islam is criticized

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg (Unsupported image host)  

Posted by Thallen

1. That's not a human right… Being able to freely travel to other countries, unconditionally, isn't and never will be a human right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement

2. You seem to be under the impression that the Constitution is some global law. It applies to the US and our citizens only. I don't even know why you're bringing up the Constitution when we're talking about people from Muslim nations.

1. That's not what I was referring to. Human rights however would be violated if we surveilled Muslim communities in America solely because of their religion - which is what Trump proposed multiple times. The immigration issue, however, is a violation of the principals that America was founded on.

2. Not necessarily. It applies to the U.S. government and the Supreme Court has extended the rights to certain classifications people, which is why the ban was knocked down by the courts as being a potential constitutional violation. Also, I wasn't just talking about Muslims from other countries as you can see in #1 and my prior post that I also brought up the idea that was proposed by Trump himself to surveil people in America based on their religious beliefs. That's a violation of the Constitution.

Posted by Crono

extremist muslims carry out attacks, people lose their minds when islam is criticized

Black people kill people, but people don't criticize all black people, because that's racist. Mexicans smuggle drugs over the border, but people don't criticize all Mexicans, because that's racist. White people kill people, but people don't criticize all white people, because that's racist. A cop kills an unarmed person, and people tried to label all cops as racist killers. Other people hit back and criticized them for falsely labeling an entire group of people based on the actions of a select few. The same goes with religions. It's stereotyping a group of people, and is rightfully criticized.  

Posted by PigParty

Black people kill people, but people don't criticize all black people, because that's racist. Mexicans smuggle drugs over the border, but people don't criticize all Mexicans, because that's racist. White people kill people, but people don't criticize all white people, because that's racist. A cop kills an unarmed person, and people tried to label all cops as racist killers. Other people hit back and criticized them for falsely labeling an entire group of people based on the actions of a select few. The same goes with religions. It's stereotyping a group of people, and is rightfully criticized.

you're confusing criticism of islam with criticism of muslims  

nice
reminds me of that time a Christian terrorist group called on all Christians to kill non-Christian on Easter, haha