Posted by Aguzo

1. Getting banned on my unidentified accounts does not serve as a warning for my main, when the only reason I had was "hacking/cheating."

That's a pretty clear warning - if someone uses an alt account to hack or cheat that doesn't make their main account void of all punishment, not saying you cheated, but it definitely is a proper warning for those that do.

Posted by Aguzo

3. Moving my character is a solid defense, they just didn't take my word for it, and didn't bother to check my movements logs. Dusty said that I didn't move, no one bothered to check what the staff that banned me did.

It's not a solid defense when you slashed 5-10 times before moving, just looks like you noticed and then proceeded to disable the bot/macro and move back to act like nothing happened.

Posted by Aguzo

4. Regarding the use of physical objects, such as an allen key. They don't work past the "are you still there?" message, and the autotap doesn't last very long (10-15 seconds max). Graal probably has something that detects insanely fast input that a human cannot do, so it stops the allen (from what I've seen)

Considering you swung 5-10 times before moving back and missed a few activity checks, it is very plausible that you were using something like an allen key and then just checking up on it to hit the queues when they popped up. You've also just said you were doing 4-5 swings a second, allen tap would probably be the exact same as if you were spamming it like you say you were.

Posted by Aguzo

Yes, graalonline has full control, but they are violating their own rules by not following their "extremely abusive behavior" rule, in which they are supposed to reply with an email, especially when on the ban screen it states that you have to contact support.toonslab.com, not "please wait for a reply from a staff member on the forums, who wasn't there at the time of your ban"
Not just that, they do have log files being recorded on their servers (stated in their privacy policy), which would have cleared up the "you didn't move when the staff member dragged you" test.

You contacted them and you've said they marked it as 'resolved' which means they overlooked the evidence and still thought you cheated, they aren't required to reply back. They also are not required to post log files (nor should they in the case that it might help botters work around it) they are simply recorded for them.

Again, you've said yourself you swung 5-10 times before moving back after being dragged, so no, they don't have to clear it up because you didn't move right away and are fully aware that you didn't.

Posted by Aguzo

I have no idea why you're saying that GraalOnline does not control these forums, when you can't advertise another game similar to graal, and they have so many other rules which show that GraalOnline is in control of Graalians.com

All of those rules were written by forum stuff who have no affiliation with GraalOnline, nor did I ever consult GraalOnline staff when putting them together.
Common practice that sites based around games do not allow behavior that would be in violation of that game (because this covers things like hacking/cheating/harassment/etc). Not wanting other Graal forums advertised is strictly for security reasons, and developers are free to advertise their own games so long as it's done in a proper manner and not just an obvious attempt at copying Graal.

This is exactly why ban threads are typically not allowed here, we have no control over in-game matters and do not represent GraalOnline.

Posted by G Fatal

If this was any other noob the thread would be already closed

Horrible implication at your part, has nothing to do with the player and his ban thread for it was closed, but he was unbanned before this thread was posted, and it sheds a good topic discussion for the community and may help prevent the same thing happening to others.  

Posted by Coco

Aguzo said he continued to swing his sword 5-10 times after being dragged which heavily implies he was botting (even if he wasn't, it makes it seem like he was).

When I’m swinging 4-5 times per second, 5-10 swings is 1-2 seconds. Did the staff just drag me and leave, instead of waiting 1-2 seconds? I told the invisible staff member (who apparently left in less than 3 seconds) that I wasn’t botting, because before that I was dragged 1-2 months ago as well (when I was using only 2 accounts). Like I’ve stated before, I only missed the prompt 2-4 times out of maybe the 30 times I got them in that day

How do I get a copy of my player logs, I want to see them on the day I was banned

Posted by Colin

That's a pretty clear warning - if someone uses an alt account to hack or cheat that doesn't make their main account void of all punishment, not saying you cheated, but it definitely is a proper warning for those that do.

It's not a solid defense when you slashed 5-10 times before moving, just looks like you noticed and then proceeded to disable the bot/macro and move back to act like nothing happened.

Considering you swung 5-10 times before moving back and missed a few activity checks, it is very plausible that you were using something like an allen key and then just checking up on it to hit the queues when they popped up.

Again, you've said yourself you swung 5-10 times before moving back after being dragged, so no, they don't have to clear it up because you didn't move right away and are fully aware that you didn't.

It’s not a proper warning when I had no idea what the true reason was behind the ban
I remembered a player named Zlotz who told me that he was banned for using bots on an unidentified account, so I figured that unidentified accounts were prohibited from farming for an identified account

Again, how do you stop a hack on your phone (device with the account that was dragged) without pausing and going to the app? My device isn’t even rooted  

Posted by Aguzo

1. Getting banned on my unidentified accounts does not serve as a warning for my main, when the only reason I had was "hacking/cheating."

Posted by Aguzo

It’s not a proper warning when I had no idea what the true reason was behind the ban

But they provided you a reason and you clearly knew what it was.

Posted by Aguzo

I remembered a player named Zlotz who told me that he was banned for using bots on an unidentified account, so I figured that unidentified accounts were prohibited from farming for an identified account

Posted by Aguzo

who told me that he was banned for using bots on an unidentified account

So he says he was using bots, and you infer that the ban was probably cause of using unidentified accounts?  

Posted by Coco

It's not that simple. Dusty would know better than myself as he's the one who implements most of the stuff like this...but graal is ...weird i guess. It's not exactly possible to put something in graal to detect 3rd party apps. Dusty said that as far as graal knows, it's the only thing that exists lol. So I'll just leave it up to him to better explain why it's not simple and why the prompt and other things we've imprinted are pretty much the best we can do.
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He hid it in a spoiler in an earlier post (dunno why it was in a spoiler):


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The staff are trained by their GPAs how to handle such situations, and if they aren't sure they usually ask someone who would know better. They don't just make guesses or anything. It would be nice if there were better ways to detect bots but unfortunately as of right now there isn't (as I said before, something Dusty could explain better).

But I mean usually when a player is dragged away and they still continue to "farm" as if nothing had happened, that's a pretty damn good indication that they're using a bot. A normal human most likely wouldn't do that...unless they're zoned out watching TV while controlling 3 devices at the same time i guess. But how often does that happen?
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^
basically summarized. Everything about the situation looked super bad on Aguzo's end and like I said, anyone else including myself would have thought he was botting, too. It sucks botting can't be more easily identified...but it's not the staff's fault for thinking he was botting when it oh so very much appeared like he was.

If graal cannot detect a 3rd party app, Or. Make it possible to make graal not work if there is a APK installed on the device or of the short,

Then what can staff do if botting gets out of hand? What would graal do if just one guild of farm botters decided to teach everyone how to do it? If graal cannot somehow detect such. Is there anything at all graal could ever do to fix it then? The message prompt is already extremely easy to work around with, I seen people bot for days on end. So it clearly works well enough for staff not to be able to detect aimbots hitting the Are you There Message.  

Posted by Colin

But they provided you a reason and you clearly knew what it was. So he says he was using bots, and you infer that the ban was probably cause of using unidentified accounts?

I did not clearly know what it was, that's why I'm saying that I thought it was for using unidentified accounts. I figured, since my main didn't get banned and only my unidentified accounts got banned the staff member was implying "you can't use unidentified accounts due to previous incidents where players try to hide the use of botting"

However you look at it, it doesn't qualify as a warning

You of all people should know that I didn't know what it was, when I even asked you how to use the new toonslab support site, and I told you in that moment
"I think it's more cause they were unidentified accounts. just didn't wanna bother adding an email" (since it was a fresh graal install)
 

Posted by Coco

The staff are trained by their GPAs how to handle such situations, and if they aren't sure they usually ask someone who would know better. They don't just make guesses or anything. It would be nice if there were better ways to detect bots but unfortunately as of right now there isn't (as I said before, something Dusty could explain better).

But I mean usually when a player is dragged away and they still continue to "farm" as if nothing had happened, that's a pretty damn good indication that they're using a bot. A normal human most likely wouldn't do that...unless they're zoned out watching TV while controlling 3 devices at the same time i guess. But how often does that happen?
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^
basically summarized. Everything about the situation looked super bad on Aguzo's end and like I said, anyone else including myself would have thought he was botting, too. It sucks botting can't be more easily identified...but it's not the staff's fault for thinking he was botting when it oh so very much appeared like he was.

I understand that staff are trained by Dread and other GPAs but, can you compare this training to an IT related degree in university? I know some of the graal police staff and non of them have actually studied IT. Of course the training they gain is almost enough to solve all of the situations successfully but sometimes things can go wrong and this situation is a good example (if Aguzo was saying the truth). It's not rare to experience such situations in games (in general) but, it's more likely to happen in this game than other bigger games. That's because the staff members are more skilled.
I'm not saying that the GP members are un-skilled, it's just what was expected from them when they were hired. They're doing great work when you think about it, they only had the training from Dread yet, managed to solve a lot of situations fairly inside the game.
Maybe a mistake took place, maybe Aguzo was right and maybe the "logs" shows that Aguzo was banned un-fairly. Nevertheless, in that moment it was SAFE to assume Aguzo was using a bot because of the multiple evidences they had. You know that the game is very fun to play but isn't well-developed compared to other bigger games, which is normal. Sometimes you have to make choices and think about your actions in more than one view, you may know that you never cheated but they may never know that because of the evidences that were VISIBLE to them.  

Like I said it's rough waters because you were behaving exactly like a macro/bot would - I'm not trying to accuse you of doing anything I'm just trying to show how easily what you did could be seen as cheating and how you could prevent it. The provided information by order of that conversation leaves out that it was 3 accounts at once, so my advice to you would be stick to one or two accounts and don't behave like a robot.

Seems they probably just linked the accounts to your main after they banned them and banned the main (if they think someone is botting on alts they are going to investigate and try to find other accounts). So you probably weren't banned twice for two different things, but rather it's just connected to the same incident.

Swinging 5-10 times before moving is vital information, even if you swing 4-5 times a second by hand, that's roughly 700~ swings a minute combined across three devices which is about 40,000~ swings an hour, to do that by hand in a very awkward 3 device setup seems pretty unlikely.  

Posted by Colin

Swinging 5-10 times before moving is vital information, even if you swing 4-5 times a second by hand, that's roughly 700~ swings a minute combined across three devices which is about 40,000~ swings an hour, to do that by hand in a very awkward 3 device setup seems pretty unlikely.

Even in the video I posted yesterday I'm tapping that fast, maybe even faster. Don't understand how a staff member can conclude that someone is botting with only 1-2 seconds after being dragged
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to prove if my phone has ever been rooted. I can't root my phone, because then I lose my warranty. Afaik, you need a rooted device to even setup a macro app/screen recording bot

 

Posted by Aguzo

Even in the video I posted yesterday I'm tapping that fast, maybe even faster

Yes but that video is a short clip, maintaining that click speed on a setup like that is probably pretty annoying and something no one would be able to keep up with for more than an hour.

Also, how can you prove your alt accounts were being used on a phone at the time of the incident, or prove what phone you were using? There's nothing that can prove you didn't cheat at that exact moment, best you can do is take more precautions next time.  

Posted by Colin

Yes but that video is a short clip, maintaining that click speed on a setup like that is probably pretty annoying and something no one would be able to keep up with for more than an hour.

Also, how can you prove your alt accounts were being used on a phone at the time of the incident, or prove what phone you were using? There's nothing that can prove you didn't cheat at that exact moment, best you can do is take more precautions next time.

The account on the phone that was dragged is under the same graalID  

Posted by Aguzo

The account on the phone that was dragged is under the same graalID

Doesn't show what specific phone was used, there's just a lot of conditions that can't be proven or disproven.  

Remember when all the attention threads like this would get is 'do not discuss bans here, send toonslab an email with an appeal' ?  

Posted by 4-Lom

Remember when all the attention threads like this would get is 'do not discuss bans here, send toonslab an email with an appeal' ?

^

So now Y’all can ask for answers after you’ve done your ban  

Posted by Colin

Doesn't show what specific phone was used, there's just a lot of conditions that can't be proved or disproved.

Each device has a specific graalID, my phone's graalID should be the same one that was dragged, and staff should have a record of it in their ban history  

Posted by 4-Loml

Remember when all the attention threads like this would get is 'do not discuss bans here, send toonslab an email with an appeal' ?

Posted by G Fatal

^

So now Y’all can ask for answers after you’ve done your ban

Yes but; he is not banned and this method of farming is common.
Ban threads aren't allowed (and his prior one was closed) because Graalians isn't an official support site and staff won't use Graalians like so.

I think because this method of farming has become common it's important to have a discussion like this, given public information we can provide answers that can benefit people who do this and how to take proper precautions. The thread is more about farming techniques than Aguzo being banned. We can easily infer why an innocent person may be banned for this so hopefully people who choose to farm like this can see that and realize how to do it without coming off as cheating.

Auto-farming 3 accounts at once by hand for durations of time is just something people should know to avoid doing for obvious reasons once you factor in how unlikely it is, especially using unidentified accounts.

Posted by Aguzo

Each device has a specific graalID, my phone's graalID should be the same one that was dragged, and staff should have a record of it in their ban history

Didn't you uninstall and reinstall? That means the graalID for the dragged account is gone, and you could have used physical objects to do it.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think e-mail is required as well for a lot of these checks, which is why it's required when using Toonslab support.