Posted by Rufus

This 'discussion' is dragging on a bit.

> People say that PC has an advantage over iDevices
> Thallen says that if PC has an advantage over iDevices, use PC so you're not disadvantaged
> People respond and say that's not the topic
> Someone either rages or verbally attacks another to rebutt instead of accurately answering question or statement
> Repeat over and over

Like really, is anyone actually reading what is being said in this thread? You're all arguing over something which everyone (bar the few that tried to argue technicalities, but that hasn't been discussed in the last few pages) has agreed upon.

Fixed.

I'd like to mention something. This thread is a- was supposed to be a more civilized debate than the Top 10 Thread. (Look how that turned out) But also it's more than just sparring. I think everyone is fully aware of everyone else's opinions by now on PC sparring.

Now, can anyone think of anywhere else where a PC or an iClient would dominate elsewhere? Like towering, certain events, viewing window, etc. Perhaps certain areas of the game are more tolerable for certain clients than others? (Deadwood, Snowtown, etc?)

Edit: Instead of bashing one another, let's try this: Try and use every example, detail or fact you can to support your argument as to why one is superior or why they are somewhat equal. Not just about sparring, but anything you can think of. I know that's what some people have been trying to do for the longest time, but I just want to see where everyone stands here.

Now, without quoting others or criticizing one another or just looking for a senseless fight. I strongly encourage everyone to put out a well thought out response to the thread. With all the arguing going on for the past I don't know...10 pages, it's been hard to see where everyone is coming from and why they believe that.  

Posted by Thallen

I feel like I've put together a thesis paper on this topic already, but I'm still determined to achieve the impossible and convince very unintelligent people of obvious things that I've already stated a dozen times.

Already at this stage of my reading I have mixed feelings about the intention of your post. Here you claim that you have set together a thesis within the earlier pages of this topic and are attempting to clear up your previous thoughts in a single post. One who did not read your previous posts would not be entirely which position you are holding but surely they will learn soon enough. At the same time, this is where you lose your credibility; you begin calling your adversaries "unintelligent people" for not comprehending the "obvious things" you have stated beforehand. This destroys your objectivity on the issue.

Posted by Thallen

If you've ever misinterpreted me as saying that I do not personally share the opinion that it is easier to spar on Facebook than it is on the iOS app, then you aren't reading my posts correctly.

Here we begin getting a glimpse of your position; Facebook is "easier" to spar than on an iOS application. How is it "easier"? We do not know yet but being a centerpiece to your argument, you probably will explain it later on with hard facts.

Posted by Thallen

I very clearly think that. Why would I spar on Facebook otherwise? Several other people in this thread have made the argument that they are both equally as easy to spar on, and that's fine. It's really a preference and opinion.

The confusion starts here. The reason why you claimed Facebook is easier really comes down to preference and opinion; Three sides can be taken in a thread called PC Client vs iDevice Client: the PC or the iDevice is the better client or they both perform equally. You clearly do not seem to support the uncommon viewpoint stating the iDevice systems are the best to spar with. This leaves you with the other options. You say that the egalitarian arguments are "fine" yet if a single advantage for a PC can be proven, the foundation of their arguments will collapse.

Posted by Thallen

Do you understand that? I will quote an analogy I used with Ash "I've never been a good sparrer in my life" Ketchum

An attack on the character instead of the argument only makes a fool of yourself. Anyway, it is analogy time! Your first argument of the entire post will be before my eyes in a matter of seconds! I cannot wait.

Posted by Thallen

You should try going to a bowling alley wearing bunny slippers and then cry your delicious tears about how unfair the game is when everyone else is wearing bowling shoes.

I am left disappointed with this analogy. If bowling would equivalent of the action of sparring while the bunny slippers and bowling shoes would be an iDevice and a PC respectively would this not imply that sparring is designed for the PC community while the iDevice players must suck it up. The point that "everyone is wearing bowling shoes" would mean that PC players compose the majority of GraalOnline Classics playerbase which on the contrary is the exact opposite. Why use such an analogy when you attempt to convince your readers that the centrist argument that only opinion and preferences matter.
Wait a minute... although you are using a terrible analogy, you are attempting to prove not which system is the best but rather that it is "fair" to use a PC in a spar match against iDevice players. Why did you not say so earlier?

Posted by Thallen

Do you need more analogies on this very specific and integral point of the argument? Are my posts too technical or something?

No!! Please not another analogy where coincides with the game! On a side note, I'm pretty sure an analogy needs to be accompanied with an explanation in order to direct your reader to your argument. Perhaps if you thought of doing so, you would notice how weak this analogy is.

Posted by Thallen

You guys continue to point out the claimed advantages that PC has over iDevice. Yup, PCers can strafe. Yup, some would argue that the keyboard is a better peripheral for sparring that the touchscreen.

So are these advantages or not? I'm pretty sure substantial evidence can back both of those you named. Why use the word "claim"? The more you concede to these advantages, the weaker your position ends up being by strengthening the argument for more boundaries between iDevice and PC. Having exclusive system benefits creates an unfair and unbalanced game. You will surely concede to this point correct?

Posted by Thallen

ATTENTION. So why are you using an iDevice to spar?!
ATTENTION
You guys have repeatedly refused to answer the question. I've quoted the following post about five additional times

May I give the reasons why I believe some people use an Idevice to spar? They don't own a PC. They are not in the proximity of a PC. They prefer the easy portability of an iDevice. They are a better iDevice sparrer.They believe the hassle of reaching a PC simply to spar is not worth the time. They believe that abusing of the PC advantages over an iDevice majority is unfair.A sibling may be using the PC at the moment.Consider your question answered. I'm positive if we all put our heads together, we can name plenty of other reasons. Many which you cannot be held accountable for.

Posted by Thallen

And again, as I've said 20 times before, it is for one of three possible reasons: dYou do not own a PC, which is no one's fault but your own. You are a better iDevice sparrer than you are on PC, which is no one's fault but your own. You fiend some sense of pride in sparring (and apparently losing) on iDevice, which is no one's fault but your own.

You can add the few reasons I added to that list. I'm sure you can't possibly blame the iDevice sparrer when his PC is unavailable. (a sibling using it or sent to the manufacturer for reparations)
Now although I agree with your second and third reasons, the first is plain wrong. Playing of a specific system does not justify the unregulated use of system unique techniques such a strafing when in spar matches. Let's say a new client is released on the Android. This new client has an unsolvable and severe bug where Android players can instantly kill another sparrer in a single hit. Although the level of unfairness greatly differs, using your argument would be it is the iDevice and PC players fault for not sparring on the Android.

Posted by Thallen

When we reach that point of the argument, it is over with. You've admitted and acknowledged that you're aware that you can play the game as (in your opinion) advantaged as every other player, yet you continue to intentionally disadvantage yourself. That is the behavior of a loser, someone who is unconfident, and someone who knows they are not good and needs some awful crutch. You've realized that you are not a good sparrer and create a fantasy land in your own mind where you are a great sparrer simply because you use a certain device to spar on.

Another long attack on the character.

Posted by Thallen

And now, allow me to predict the future: Someone will come into the thread claiming that PC is an advantaged device, completely ignoring everything I've just said. Someone will come into this thread claiming that they spar on iDevice so it's "fair", completely ignoring everything I've just said.Someone will come into this thread suggesting I defy their own logic by sparring on an iDevice, completely ignoring everything I've just said. Very bad sparrers (such as GOAT, Ash Ketchum, Goten) will never be able to take responsibility for how bad they are at this game and blame themselves rather than the rules I will continue winning spars while the aforementioned players are upset, confused, and in denial over their own failures in a 5-button game

The first sentence of your post stated you already formulated your thesis within the last five or six pages . The thing you are forgetting is that a thesis is subject to counter-arguments, something you seem keen on ignoring. You can't expect everyone to share the same point of view as you. What are you trying to prove with this list? Everything retaining to this topic will fall in this list.  

TD just did what I was too lazy to. I vote him for president.  

Posted by Rufus

This 'discussion' is dragging on a bit.

> People say that PC has an advantage over iDevices
> Thallen says that if PC has an advantage over iDevices, use PC so you're not disadvantaged
> People respond and say that's not the topic
> ???
> Repeat over and over

Like really, is anyone actually reading what is being said in this thread? You're all arguing over something which everyone (bar the few that tried to argue technicalities, but that hasn't been discussed in the last few pages) has agreed upon.

99.99% convinced GOAT is just wasting our time and wants someone to talk to.

Heres my analogy of this entire thread;

Thallen is throwing flaming fireballs at the iDevice players and they're simply dousing the flames with a water gun that doesn't replenish its ammo. When Thallen takes a break from breathing out fireballs, they quickly shoot their water guns only to realize hes a ****ing fire breathing freak and their attacks are futile. However, due to the sheer amount of iDevice players, the water tank of the gun is constantly being replenished, not by ingenuity, rather sheer **********. Due to the endless battle, ashes created have littered the ground, the arguments becoming a time of the past, still existing, but forgotten by everyone.

edit: what did i just write.....................  

Posted by GOAT

Ok agreed it’s easier to spar on pc do to controls/whatever GOAT-1 Noobs-0


Maybe the fact that you have a descent computer at home that gives you a performance advantage or maybe you have played graal with a iDevice and realized that you’re an avg sparer. Someone told me to ask you about your 4k-2k ipod account?


You got your story backwards. That analogy would only work if iPhoners would make the jump to pc graal with their iphones.
Try this next time. I was at the bowling alley playing with my bunny slippers and out of nowhere some noobs with bowling shoes showed up. Grrrr wtf noobs they said this was a bunny slipper league. Lol you always word your statements with the wrong sense of direction that’s why you continue to lose old timer


Has nothing to do with the argument in hand




1. sounds like a contradiction to your previous stament
2.the point of the argument is that pc have a performance/speed advantage over most devices so how is this statement bring any light to the subject?
3.now lets fleep the script find someone’s idevice and you can spar my pc so you can see that youre full of bs mamba jaba.

You're comparing Thallen calling people "unintelligent" to fire lol. Anyways the fact that nearly every post Thallen is rambling on acting superior to everyone without providing any actual argument, just calling people idiots is actually making me believe he doesn't have the mental capacity to think of an actual argument which is making me question his intelligence. Anyway, GOAT Hydro pumped those ***** fireballs.  

Posted by GotenGraal

Anyway, GOAT Hydro pumped those ***** fireballs.

Didn't seem like it to me. Anti-PC-ers have such a poor argument.  

Posted by Winter

Didn't seem like it to me. Anti-PC-ers have such a poor argument.

At least we have an argument.  

Posted by GotenGraal

At least we have an argument.

Because Thallen doesn't have arguments himself? When Shannon said anti-pcers have poor arguments, shes relating the word 'poor' to some standard, which in this case would be Thallen's arguments.

This comment is such an half-assed comment meant to provide some kind of doubt within our case, which we don't have.  

PC has greater mobility by far, sense the up and right arrow keys over-write nearly all movement commands, THATS ALL. Have a decent PC? Use it and shut up, I know I'd use PC. But chances are, you don't have a Windows2000, but much rather, probably some new-age (or half way decent) computer that you refuse to use. Using PC or not, I wish you'd all stop caring who is on what.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfID...t=HL1360706219  

I feel like I want to do a Pokemon analogy here

We all have our preferences in Pokemon. Some people enjoy the tough looking ones like Aggron while others might prefer the cute looking ones like Butterfree. Despite your preferences, these Pokemon all have their own stats: Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed. At the end of the day, some Pokemon are simply stronger than the others.

Suddenly, an expansion is released a few years post the official release of one of the major game's where you can compete with others online (I believe nothing like this has been done on a Pokemon game but for the analogy, Nintendo decided they would release an expansion for some extra moolah). The minor additions includes an increase in the level cap by 5 and adds a x1.1 XP boost. All this could be obtained for a simple 20$ (credit card only)

A few days after the release, two trainers decide to battle. One owns the new expansion while the other one does not. Let's call these two trainers EXPY (expansion:yes) and EXPN (expansion: no) for practical reasons.

Just because EXPY has a distinct advantage doesn't necessarily result in instant wins. Could be EXPN has the right types of Pokemon. Could be EXPY had the brilliant idea throws out a level 105 Metapod (Not even a Metapod which evolved from a Caterpie thus not having Tackle or String Shot) Maybe, despite having an XP bonus, did not sufficiently train his Pokemon enough when compared to EXPN.

Now in the event that EXPY wins a battle where both trainers have Pokemon of similar levels, we can never know if he won because of his advantages or not. Now of course a win is a win; it will be counted to his W-L ratio. EXPY won the battle legitimately by the game rules but hidden behind his ratio lies the uncertainty whether he won the games due to his advantage or skill.

Now this what I think on the issue of PC vs iDevice sparring. Since it is obvious that small advantages are found in in PC sparring (strafing and keyboard layout), how could a PC player find pride in his W-L ratio when he/she plays with a handicap in every spar matches. Problem with this handicap is that it does not even attempt to level the players strengths.  

Posted by Rezon

Because Thallen doesn't have arguments himself? When Shannon said anti-pcers have poor arguments, shes relating the word 'poor' to some standard, which in this case would be Thallen's arguments.

This comment is such an half-assed comment meant to provide some kind of doubt within our case, which we don't have.

What arguments? Please tell me because calling someone an idiot is just his excuse for not having one.  

I am a little shocked that a few of you continue to claim that I am not responding to points in this thread when I've probably pounded out 300,000 keystrokes that continue to be disregarded and ignored. So, I'll summarize the argument in some Q&A format.



Person: PC players have an advantage in spars!
Thallen: I won't ask you to prove your point because I agree with the opinion. It is also my opinion that it is easier to spar on PC than on an iDevice.

Person: It is not fair that PC players get to spar against iDevice users!
Thallen: Yes it is, because the fairness equation is there. You have the option of choosing your device, and so do I. You choose to use iDevice, and I choose to use PC.

Person: PC players' movement speed is inherently faster than iDevice players!
Thallen: No, it is not. This is not a fact, so please stop saying it. There is a cap on your speed for both devices. If you move slower than the cap, it is because your PC or iDevice has horrible specs, and that'd be your own fault.

Person: PC players walk through hits!
Thallen: You simply do not understand mechanics that you must deal with when sparring, such as horrible lag and delay. It'd also help if you understood the difference between clientside and serverside hit detection. iDevice users seem to make up the majority of the lagger community, by the way. I'm using ethernet while you're using 3G or spotty WiFi.

Person: PC players can hack easier!
Thallen: Both devices are vulnerable in this way. If your opinion is that it is easier to hack on PC than on iDevice, then I agree. Nonetheless, the possibility exists for both. In the sparring community today, I've only ever suspected two or three people of hacking in spars. I think that they use speed, but it has never bothered me because they are not good enough or active enough to make an impact. I don't exactly feel threatened by a 3% increase in speed. If you want to help prevent this problem, please plead with iClassic administrators to make better detection. I'd love to see it as well. It is not logical to criminalize an entire platform of players because you saw someone speed hacking in a spar one day.

Person: Hundreds of people use the iDevice while only a few use the PC! This is unfair!
Thallen: No, it isn't. Both have the option of using PC.

Person: I use iDevice because I want it to spar fairly against other players!
Thallen: Please realize that you are making up your own set of rules for the game. That is what losers do. Please think like a winner. Once again, the game gives you a choice. You cannot dictate what I choose, and I cannot dictate what you choose.

Person: The fact that there is an iDevice room proves that it is unfair!
Thallen: No, it does not. It only proves that there are stubborn players who have complained to the point where iClassic administrators have found it beneficial to create a room just for that group of players.

Person: I don't have a PC!
Thallen: I'm sorry, but that is not my fault at all and I won't allow it to change how I play the game.

Person: iClassic is for iDevice users!
Thallen: No, it isn't. The game allows you to play by Facebook. You cannot make up rules for the game. The game makes the rules.

Person: How come you won't spar me on an iDevice?
Thallen: Again, because the game gives you a choice. Let us assume that I did spar you on an iDevice and you beat me. What was proven? Well, you've proven that you were better than me in a spar on the iDevice platform. You haven't proven that you are a better sparrer or a more "fair" sparrer. If you want to prove yourself as the better sparrer, you will go on the device you play the best on and I will do the exact same. Why are you the only side that gets a choice in this argument?

Person: The only reason you're better than me is because you're using a PC!
Thallen: Well, that's false. At this point, you're just making excuses because you're unable to accept your own failures. If it was true, why not use a PC?



Have I missed anything? Does anyone have any new breakthrough that they'd care to share? All that I'm doing is repeating the same exact things that I've said time and time again. You guys have introduced nothing new to the argument in the past five pages. Ask me a question, any question regarding your inability to accept the "fairness" of sparring on iClassic and I promise that I will answer it. I bet I can even quote something I've said in one of my former posts that have already answered it.  

This thread was about whether pc have the advantage or not, not about fairness or anything else you just rambled on about. Your first point said it all, I don't know what you're trying to argue with all your irrelevant points.  

Posted by Rufus

This 'discussion' is dragging on a bit.

> People say that PC has an advantage over iDevices
> Thallen says that if PC has an advantage over iDevices, use PC so you're not disadvantaged
> People respond and say that's not the topic
> ???
> Repeat over and over

Like really, is anyone actually reading what is being said in this thread? You're all arguing over something which everyone (bar the few that tried to argue technicalities, but that hasn't been discussed in the last few pages) has agreed upon.

Posted by GotenGraal

This thread was about whether pc have the advantage or not, not about fairness or anything else you just rambled on about. Your first point said it all, I don't know what you're trying to argue with all your irrelevant points.

Hmm.  

Yeah, he doesn't get it. I dunno, there's not much left to say.

Posted by Blueh

Here's a proper house to the ongoing PC vs iDevice argument as to advantages, disadvantages, one being unfair, etc. I'm not putting a poll on here because obviously everyone would just choose the one they primarily use and since each have their own benefits. So, thoughts on the subject?

So in conclusion of this thread:

1. You can have your own opinion on which device has the advantage. There are too many variables and personal quirks about each device that it's extremely hard to prove. It is a matter of preference. It doesn't matter anyway, because you have the option of using either.
2. Neither are unfair for that reason.

The thread is a circle and it will continue to be a circle because:

• Certain bad sparrers cannot own up to the fact that other players spar better than them
• Certain players have tried to spar on PC and aren't as good with it
• Certain players do not own a PC and try to blame this on the game itself
• Certain players feel as if, because the game was available on iDevice for a certain amount of time first, that they are being cheated and treated unfairly… by being given an option

I can't imagine how someone could logically question anything I've said in this post and the last one. But don't worry, both will be overlooked and the argument will continue back at the start.