Posted by Guri

Please stay on the topic of this thread. There's no need for such posts here. What happened is bad enough.

You're not a moderator, don't tell me how to post. It's completely within context of what he posted towards me. Go back to your safe space.

Posted by mithos

Lives were lost, and you expect her to continue her tour? You may see it as her being a coward, but being able to continue her tour seems to mean that she doesn't care about what just happened to her fans.

That judgment doesn't come without conditions. Ariana Grande is a celebrity (who you all claim can't be held accountable due to her age even though she's 21?) who used her platform to tell people that she hates Trump. He's one of the few world leaders willing to take major steps towards eradicating the threat of ISIS from their country. She's been outspoken about how she finds his push for a temporary ban to be "racist" and she's influenced a lot of people in that way.

One of her shows was just attacked by these same terrorists. There's a snowflake in this thread suggesting that I am "hateful and sexist" for even suggesting that now she should maybe come to the realization that the threat is serious enough to warrant ACTUAL MEASURES to mitigate the risk of this happening (at least in the US).

So yes, I do think it's pretty cowardly of her to be so outspoken about Trump and "Islamophobia," yet cower back to this country at the second she's affected by what he's trying to protect us from. Should I instead think she's a hero for tweeting out "sorry?" She can be held accountable just like anyone else. You don't become immune just because a tragedy happens.


PigParty, you conveniently avoided answering this:

Posted by Thallen

Do you or do you not think Islam, as a religion, is regressive when compared to Western culture? There are two possible answers, and both of them go against your argument:

1. Yes, in which case it makes no sense that you're complaining about the president of a sovereign nation wanting to temporarily ban migrants from high-threat countries controlled by the religion
2. No, in which case I don't think you know very much about Islam

There's not much left to say after that. Islam is dangerous and incompatible with the West. ISIS flourishes because it's so easy to manipulate an already-regressive religion and shape it into some murderous and hateful idealogy. You're telling me I shouldn't criticize someone's response to an Islamic terror attack for having no real substance, and I'm telling you that the same person voted against the obvious, short-term solution to fixing this problem that just got 20+ of her fans killed.

 

Posted by Thallen

PigParty, you conveniently avoided answering this:

I assumed the question was rhetorical considering you gave 2 possible answers to a complex question and set it up to attempt to pin me in a corner and admit that you're right, or call me out for being stupid because I know nothing about Islam while you are omniscient.

My answer is that no, Islam as a religion is not regressive. At least, not any more than Christianity is. However, many Middle-Eastern countries are regressive. They are progressing, very slowly, just as every other country has and is still doing to this day. It's all a matter of political ideologies. People tend to mesh religious beliefs and political beliefs together into one. I'm a Christian, but I believe that the death penalty is okay. Religiously speaking, the death penalty is not okay. The countries, and their governments/leaders are the regressive ones. Place a stable government in these countries and I think society would progress very fast in these Islamic countries. As a society develops, the population is able to become more civilized. They haven't had the chance to worry about developing socially when they have life-threatening problems to deal with all the time.

Short answer: no. The government, corruption, and leaders wanting to maintain power are the problems.

I think what has allowed terrorism to fester is the society that the Islamic countries are still living in. Living conditions are extremely poor, poverty is rampant, and those in power and extremely wealthy and remain in power through physical threats. There's no order. When you have Assad killing his own people in Syria, who are you going to turn to? The rule of government has allowed and promoted terrorism to fester in a society that doesn't want it and doesn't practice it.

Posted by Thallen

That judgment doesn't come without conditions. Ariana Grande is a celebrity (who you all claim can't be held accountable due to her age even though she's 21?) who used her platform to tell people that she hates Trump. He's one of the few world leaders willing to take major steps towards eradicating the threat of ISIS from their country. She's been outspoken about how she finds his push for a temporary ban to be "racist" and she's influenced a lot of people in that way.

That's incorrect. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush, and everyone wants to and has taken steps to eradicate ISIS. You disagree with how they did it, but you can't honestly claim that they didn't try. No ine thinks Trump doesn't hate ISIS or that he doesn't want to eradicate them. They do however, disagree with how he is trying to do that. ISIS isn't a set group of people that you can just kill and they will be gone. They spread through ideologies. The war against ISIS has 2 fronts. There's the physical aspect, and the social aspect. They grow by manipulating the minds of people who feel let down, betrayed, or forgotten in some way. Banning everyone from the country won't stop terrorist attacks in America. It will decrease them surely, but there's still the ideologies of terrorism spreading online.  

Suicide bomber named as Salman Abedi born in UK with Libyan parents.  

*opens thread to give my condolences to those families who lost a loved one in the attack*
*sees multi-paragraph arguments*
*leaves*  

What has Trump got in any relation to this?

People died at the hands of a suicide bomber at a singers show. Some of the audience were as young as 6 years old. It's a tragedy, why are you going deeper than that? The last thing you should worry about is what the singer of the show tweeted. It's her account, her words, her show so frankly you should be thankful she shared that she was sorry.

You can't expect a young girl like that to hold herself together after 19+ people have died and many more injured at her own show

OT: Rest in peace and my thoughts are with those affected.  

Posted by PigParty

My answer is that no, Islam as a religion is not regressive. At least, not any more than Christianity is.

Christianity has gone through many iterations and a modernization. The most refined Muslim countries still punish homosexuality by death. I won't even go into the gross amount of statistics to disprove this, because I don't think you can be convinced at this point. For you to even compare the two is extremely insulting, and I'm not even a Christian.

Posted by Clown

It's a tragedy, why are you going deeper than that?

Yeah, why look into ways we can fix the problem or understand why our behavior is enabling it? Let's light a candle, use a Snapchat filter, etc. After all, terrorism is now just "part and parcel" of life like the mayor of your city said, right? Who's ready for the new Ariana Grande single to commemorate this tragedy?  

Please stop bringing Trump into this. I'm English and its pretty disrespectful when Americans always feel the need to bring their presidents into these discussions. Trump has nothing to do with this. People died, have respect.  

Wish they had the deceny to target Ariana Grande instead of her fans  

Posted by SomeGuy

Please stop bringing Trump into this. I'm English and its pretty disrespectful when Americans always feel the need to bring their presidents into these discussions. Trump has nothing to do with this. People died, have respect.

Did you just want it to be a thread where people virtue signal and "send condolences" online with other strangers? Pig was the first to throw out Trump, and at least it was in context. It's clearly a tragedy and a very sad one, but I don't see the good in trying to control the message or prevent from talking about the culture, politics, or events surrounding it.

Posted by Xenthic

Suicide bomber named as Salman Abedi born in UK with Libyan parents.

This is pretty concerning to me, because it means that he was one of the "integrated" migrants.  

Posted by Thallen

Go defend a religion that openly murders and oppresses people more, weirdo…

it's called radicalism. there's radical Christians, so that means their religion openly murders and oppresses people? learn not to stereotype large groups of people based solely off of the actions of very few.  

Posted by ken the fruiterer

it's called radicalism. there's radical Christians, so that means their religion openly murders and oppresses people? learn not to stereotype large groups of people based solely off of the actions of very few.

i don't think thallen actually wrote that  

Posted by ken the fruiterer

it's called radicalism. there's radical Christians, so that means their religion openly murders and oppresses people? learn not to stereotype large groups of people based solely off of the actions of very few.

31% of the world are Christians and only 23% are Muslims. Regardless of that, which religion is overwhelmingly responsible for the most violent terrorist attacks? It's not even close. Things that are factually true are not stereotypes…

What exactly is a radical Muslim to you though? I have a gay friend who lives in Saudi Arabia and he can't tell anyone he's gay because he'll actually be legally murdered. Is that radical to you?  

Posted by Thallen

Christianity has gone through many iterations and a modernization. The most refined Muslim countries still punish homosexuality by death. I won't even go into the gross amount of statistics to disprove this, because I don't think you can be convinced at this point. For you to even compare the two is extremely insulting, and I'm not even a Christian.

I actually am a Christian, and it didn't insult me to compare the two because I am not that ignorant about the topic. Chrstianity hasn't gone through modernization. The Bible has not modernized over the past 2,000 years. The people have modernized. The Bible still condemns homosexuality and talks about stoning them.

It ain't just a Muslim problem.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/barbra-s...men-in-israel/  

Posted by PigParty

I actually am a Christian, and it didn't insult me to compare the two because I am not that ignorant about the topic. Chrstianity hasn't gone through modernization. The Bible has not modernized over the past 2,000 years. The people have modernized. The Bible still condemns homosexuality and talks about stoning them.

It ain't just a Muslim problem.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/barbra-s...men-in-israel/

When's the last time you heard about Christians stoning someone to death? Why is it that Muslim societies are so far behind Christian societies? Would you rather live in Canada or Saudi Arabia? Have you ever been threatened with death at the idea of turning away from Christianity?

We don't even have to go into actual statistics to prove that the stuff that you're saying is nuts. To compare the two cultures in any capacity is actually delusional. There are Muslims that will tell you this. Muslims envy Christian societies, not the other way around.

Arguing semantics of "but the Bible says" just further proves my point. The Bible says it, but the people and their societies have adapted and changed with the ways of the world. If you know what Wahhabism is, I'm almost positive that there's no equivalent to it in Christian society.  

Posted by Thallen

When's the last time you heard about Christians stoning someone to death? Why is it that Muslim societies are so far behind Christian societies? Would you rather live in Canada or Saudi Arabia? Have you ever been threatened with death at the idea of turning away from Christianity?

We don't even have to go into actual statistics to prove that the stuff that you're saying is nuts. To compare the two cultures in any capacity is actually delusional. There are Muslims that will tell you this. Muslims envy Christian societies, not the other way around.

Arguing semantics of "but the Bible says" just further proves my point. The Bible says it, but the people and their societies have adapted and changed with the ways of the world. If you know what Wahhabism is, I'm almost positive that there's no equivalent to it in Christian society.

Why would Muslims envy Christian societies if Muslims hate America and are completely evil? That statement alone opposed your argument. It's about society, the government, the state of living that causes the problems. You pretty much just said Islam isn't the problem.